is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
30 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Jonathan Dowland
I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
package within Debian for this to happen.

I think the default should be reconsidered.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Mo Zhou
Hi,

> I think the default should be reconsidered.

I second that since I always refuse to use Wayland, due to

1. Gnome's keyboard configuration under wayland is definitely rubbish.
   I need extremely high keyboard repeat rate and short latency:

     xset r rate 160 160

   The fastest repeat rate feels like 10 times slower than my
   preference. I didn't manage to find out the CLI way to enforce an
   extremely high key repeat rate under wayland.

2. redshift doesn't work under wayland. There seems to be no CLI
   program available for such purpose.

3. I don't know whether this has been improved, but in the past
   the mouse cursor latency was very obvious.

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:12:22PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
> think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
> the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
> Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
> thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
> isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
> package within Debian for this to happen.
>
> I think the default should be reconsidered.
>
> --
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Jérémy Lal-2


Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 17:25, Mo Zhou <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Hi,

> I think the default should be reconsidered.

I second that since I always refuse to use Wayland, due to

1. Gnome's keyboard configuration under wayland is definitely rubbish.
   I need extremely high keyboard repeat rate and short latency:

     xset r rate 160 160

   The fastest repeat rate feels like 10 times slower than my
   preference. I didn't manage to find out the CLI way to enforce an
   extremely high key repeat rate under wayland.

2. redshift doesn't work under wayland. There seems to be no CLI
   program available for such purpose.

The gnome-shell version of redshift does work under wayland, but doesn't
apply to the mouse pointer.
 

3. I don't know whether this has been improved, but in the past
   the mouse cursor latency was very obvious.

4. copy/paste delays between some gtk applications (epiphany, gpaste...)

5. SDL might need SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland explicitely

6. some graphic cards run better under X

i guess the list goes on and on


On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:12:22PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
> think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
> the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
> Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
> thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
> isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
> package within Debian for this to happen.
>
> I think the default should be reconsidered.
>
> --
>
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
> ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Mo Zhou
On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:25 PM Mo Zhou wrote:

> 2. redshift doesn't work under wayland. There seems to be no CLI
>    program available for such purpose.

GNOME/Wayland in buster supports this natively: Settings -> Devices ->
Displays -> Night Light

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Guillem Jover
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
Hi!

On Fri, 2019-04-05 at 16:12:22 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
> think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
> the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
> Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
> thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
> isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
> package within Debian for this to happen.

I don't use GNOME at all, but I tried to switch to Wayland last month
(from i3 to sway), and sadly the experience lasted only a couple of days.

I noticed that not all big desktop programs support Wayland natively
(such as Chromium), or do so out of the box (such as Qt or KDE), this
implies you need to have XWayland running most of the time, which
consumes around 100 MiB of resident memory. Wayland also uses libinput
which I've found to be subpar compared to the synpatics input drivers.
There seems to be also some issue with Qt/KDE programs and text DPI.

The other were problems specific to sway so not relevant to this thread,
but the issues in general were annoying enough that even if I'd really
like to fully switch, I didn't find this was good enough for now.

Although I don't think I care about the default desktop, as users can
select whatever they want at install time or switch to something else,
I can see Jonathan's reasoning that this can inadvertently affect other
bystanders.

Thanks,
Guillem

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Bastian Blank
On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 08:47:51PM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> I don't use GNOME at all, but I tried to switch to Wayland last month
> (from i3 to sway), and sadly the experience lasted only a couple of days.

You changed display manager implementations and are trying to compare
that?  How can you differentiate between problems causes by the i3 to
sway switch from problems caused by xorg to wayland?

> I noticed that not all big desktop programs support Wayland natively
> (such as Chromium), or do so out of the box (such as Qt or KDE), this
> implies you need to have XWayland running most of the time, which
> consumes around 100 MiB of resident memory.

My gnome-shell consumes a multiple of that usualy.  But much more
important: why is the qt wayland support not installed?

>                                             Wayland also uses libinput
> which I've found to be subpar compared to the synpatics input drivers.

xorg only installs the libinput and the separate wacom input by default:

| Package: xserver-xorg-input-all
| Depends: xserver-xorg-input-libinput
| Recommends: xserver-xorg-input-wacom

> There seems to be also some issue with Qt/KDE programs and text DPI.

I don't see such problems, and I use it in HiDPI mode, which becomes
increasingly more common.  wireshark is now a Qt application and looks
fine, apart from the fact that it's Qt and the design choices of this
library.

I could add a number of problems I found myself, but none of them are
relevant for Joe Random user.

Regards,
Bastian

--
It is a human characteristic to love little animals, especially if
they're attractive in some way.
                -- McCoy, "The Trouble with Tribbles", stardate 4525.6

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Simon McVittie-7
In reply to this post by Guillem Jover
On Sat, 06 Apr 2019 at 20:47:51 +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-04-05 at 16:12:22 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> > the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland.

It's perhaps important to point out before this thread gets much further
that Wayland is not like Xorg: it's a protocol, not a program. GNOME
Shell, Weston and sway are all (separate) Wayland implementations: they
share some library code (and they share Xwayland as a compatibility
layer for X11 apps), but GNOME in Wayland mode and KDE in Wayland mode
have less in common than GNOME on X11 and KDE on X11.

In particular, when GNOME Shell runs in Wayland mode, there is no Weston
involvement.

Weston is definitely not a candidate for the default desktop in buster.
It's the reference implementation of a Wayland compositor, and doesn't
provide a full desktop environment - think of it as more like an
equivalent of Xorg + openbox (or some similarly minimal window manager)
than an equivalent of GNOME or KDE.

GNOME in buster has defaulted to Wayland mode since August 2017. The
default could presumably be swapped back to X11, as we did for stretch,
but I'm not sure whether post-hard-freeze is necessarily an appropriate
time to do that. The GNOME team made the corresponding change in stretch
(for which we had been hoping to default to Wayland, but decided that
it wasn't ready) 2 months before the transition freeze.

If I understand correctly, the pattern that led to synaptic's removal is
that it runs its full GUI as root, which isn't supported by the way many
(all?) Wayland environments set up Xwayland. The reason that Wayland
environment developers don't want to support this is that it makes it
very likely that the GUI that runs as root can be subverted by other
X11 apps connected to the same display.

> I don't use GNOME at all, but I tried to switch to Wayland last month
> (from i3 to sway), and sadly the experience lasted only a couple of days.

sway is not GNOME any more than Weston is, and doesn't necessarily
implement all the same Wayland interfaces as GNOME Shell. I would
recommend assessing Wayland implementations (compositors) on their
own merits.

    smcv

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Guillem Jover
In reply to this post by Bastian Blank
On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 21:48:57 +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 08:47:51PM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> > I don't use GNOME at all, but I tried to switch to Wayland last month
> > (from i3 to sway), and sadly the experience lasted only a couple of days.
>
> You changed display manager implementations and are trying to compare
> that?

Well it was obviously easier to compare than against Weston/GNOME/KDE.

> How can you differentiate between problems causes by the i3 to
> sway switch from problems caused by xorg to wayland?

Because the problems I listed were the ones that are obviously
Wayland-related/specific or because I tried with Xwayland and native
support. And because I think all sway-specific problems I found had
already bugs filed.

> > I noticed that not all big desktop programs support Wayland natively
> > (such as Chromium), or do so out of the box (such as Qt or KDE), this
> > implies you need to have XWayland running most of the time, which
> > consumes around 100 MiB of resident memory.
>
> My gnome-shell consumes a multiple of that usualy.  But much more
> important: why is the qt wayland support not installed?

On my main system that's way too much memory used, and i3 and sway
consume just a fraction of that.

For Qt, qtwayland5 is just a Suggests from libqt5gui5, and a Recommends
from libkf5windowsystem5, or Depends from kwayland-integration via a
Recommends from libkf5windowsystem5|libkf5idletime5.

Even then, AFAIR Qt does not enable Wayland support by default, and it
might need the following environment variables:

  # KDE
  export XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland
  export QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland-egl

I also tried to play with:

  export QT_WAYLAND_FORCE_DPI=physical

I also used:

  # Gtk3 (this might crash chromium f.ex.)
  export GDK_BACKEND=wayland
  export CLUTTER_BACKEND=wayland
  # SDL
  export SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland

(For a tailing WM you might also want:

  export QT_WAYLAND_DISABLE_WINDOWDECORATION=1
  export _JAVA_AWT_WM_NONREPARENTING=1
?)

So, are you sure you are not running Qt apps via Xwayland? To make
sure I disabled Xwayland support to see what was not starting at all,
as I wanted as much as possible to be running natively, to check if
it was feasible to run w/o Xwayland.

> >                                             Wayland also uses libinput
> > which I've found to be subpar compared to the synpatics input drivers.
>
> xorg only installs the libinput and the separate wacom input by default:

Sure, and I've tried libinput with X.Org and for me it's the same subpar
experience as on Wayland. The difference is that with X.Org I can install
the synaptics driver.

> > There seems to be also some issue with Qt/KDE programs and text DPI.
>
> I don't see such problems, and I use it in HiDPI mode, which becomes
> increasingly more common.  wireshark is now a Qt application and looks
> fine, apart from the fact that it's Qt and the design choices of this
> library.

See above?

> I could add a number of problems I found myself, but none of them are
> relevant for Joe Random user.

I think I qualified my reply enough as to what was relevant to the
discussion and to what extent I care about the GNOME default? :)
Dunno, just felt like commenting on my attemps as someone who really
wants to switch away from X.Org, but didn't find it satisfactory yet.

Regards,
Guillem

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Shengjing Zhu-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
As a KDE user, I don't have much knowledge about GNOME.

But I remember at the Chinese user support channel, many people have problems with the default input method (fcitx) and GNOME. The answer is usually to ask them to switch to GNOME on Xorg.

Someone may argue that ibus(another input method) is ready for Wayland, but fcitx is far better than ibus (for Simplified Chinese), except it's not ready for Wayland.

This user case may be not enough to change the default choice of GNOME, but I think this should at least be in release notes.

// send from my mobile device


Jonathan Dowland <[hidden email]> 于 2019年4月5日周五 23:12写道:
I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
package within Debian for this to happen.

I think the default should be reconsidered.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Guus Sliepen via nm
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:12:22PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
> think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
> the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
> Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved (and
> thus potentially removed entirely from Buster), a decision that — in
> isolation — makes sense to me; although Synaptic is quite a high profile
> package within Debian for this to happen.
>
> I think the default should be reconsidered.
I try out Wayland every half year or so, and every time I switch back to
X because most of what I want doesn't run on it or needs Xwayland
anyway, which probably negates any benefits of Wayland. So personally, I
think it's not ready yet to be the default for a distribution like
Debian. But then again, I'm probably not the average user. So the
question should be:

What benefits does the average Debian user get from switching to
GNOME/Wayland in its current state, and do those benefits weigh more
than the drawbacks they get compared to using GNOME/X?

The average user doesn't care about whether the architecture of the
Wayland protocol is better than X11's. And conversely, while I do use
remote X sometimes and find it highly useful, this is probably also
something the average user doesn't care about. So one should look
mainly about how the average user uses their computer and whether that
works better on Wayland or X.

Now, the term "average user" is a bit vague and can easily be
misinterpreted. I think it should be interpreted as a hypothetical user
that performs daily tasks on their computer that are the weighted
average of what tasks all Debian users perform. So 95% of that
hypothetical user's tasks are probably web browsing, email, general
productivity applications (text editing etc) and games.

If anything of that 95% of tasks doesn't work on Wayland at all, then
this probably causes a major annoyance for a user and they might just
want to switch back to X11. If it works but is not as good as on X11,
then as long as they can easily live with it, it's probably fine.
Note that for the average user, if something doesn't work out of the
box, they will probably assume it doesn't work at all, even if there is
some workaround possible.

--
Met vriendelijke groet / with kind regards,
      Guus Sliepen <[hidden email]>

signature.asc (849 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Adam Borowski-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:12:22PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> I was surprised to learn — by way of synaptic being autoremoved — that
> the default desktop in Buster will be GNOME/Wayland. I personally do not
> think that Wayland is a sensible choice for the default *yet*; and if
> the consequence is that bugs for software that do not work properly with
> Wayland have their severity inflated such that they are autoremoved

Neither GNOME nor Wayland work on any screen-attached machine I own.
There's usually just a black screen, and/or a return to the login manager
(assuming it does start at all -- which is not granted for gdm3).

My machines are:

* an amd64 desktop:
  * nouveau: way too crashy to be considered "working".  With my old
    monitors (1280x1024 + 1200x1600) it crashed once a few hours, with
    new setup (2560x1600 + 1200x1600) it crashes every a couple of hours
    with regular work, or 7 times within an hour trying to watch a movie.
    With xfce, disabling the compositor makes it work.  With GNOME, it's
    AFAIK not an option (the fallback is gone, right?).
    The crashiness is not a fault of nouveau guys, but our beloved
    nVidia Corporation™® and their preciousss Intellectual Property.

  * nvidia proprietary: doesn't work with new kernels.  Sorry, but I do
    a kernel patch once in a while, waiting for proprietary crap to get
    updated is not an option.

  * (I've recently replaced the graphics card with an oldish AMD one;
    didn't get around to trying GNOME yet, sorry.)

* Pine{64,book}:
  simplefb.  GNOME no workie.

* RockPro64, used as a desktop (I'm typing these words on it):
  armsoc.  GNOME no workie.

* N900:
  didn't try.  I don't suspect it could work, though.

* Gemini:
  libhybris.  No way to run Wayland I guess, X GNOME probably either.

* Omega OAN133:
  crashes with a black screen (although it's been a while since I tried).

* an i386 desktop (used as a pedestal for RockPro):
  i915 [910GL].  Might or might not run, although the mandatory compositor
  on hardware this old would cause such a slideshow on 2560x1600 that it
  wouldn't be usable.

* qemu-kvm on work desktop:
  [Host GPU is i915 (HD530)]: black screen in default buster's GNOME
  (thus Wayland), Cinnamon at least gives a message.  Very likely something
  with qemu's configuration -- but work time is not supposed to be spent
  wrangling desktop environment problems, thus I did not investigate.

* qemu-tcg on home desktop, emulating powerpc, mips64el, ...
  GNOME: black screen, Cinnamon: error message.  (Tried a while ago.)

On every single of the above setups XFCE works perfectly.

> I think the default should be reconsidered.

+1.  With GNOME not working even on some amd64 machines, it's not fit to be
the default.  Technical reasons aside, the UI is non-ergonomic and
counter-intuitive, has broken systray, and suffers from CSD.

Once the black screen/crash problem is fixed, you may consider making
Wayland and/or GNOME the default again, but for Buster, that's a pretty bad
idea.


Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Did ya know that typing "test -j8" instead of "ctest -j8"
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ will make your testsuite pass much faster, and fix bugs?
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Bastian Blank
On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 05:59:38PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> Neither GNOME nor Wayland work on any screen-attached machine I own.
> There's usually just a black screen, and/or a return to the login manager
> (assuming it does start at all -- which is not granted for gdm3).

And gdm3 uses which backend?

> My machines are:
> * an amd64 desktop:
>   * nouveau: way too crashy to be considered "working".  With my old
>     monitors (1280x1024 + 1200x1600) it crashed once a few hours, with
>     new setup (2560x1600 + 1200x1600) it crashes every a couple of hours
>     with regular work, or 7 times within an hour trying to watch a movie.

Within the last year only three bug reports showed up for the kernel in
Debian regarding nouveau.  Which one is it?  Als nouveau supports over
ten years of hardware.

> * Pine{64,book}:
>   simplefb.  GNOME no workie.

gnome-shell needs 3D stuff, as documented.  So unrelated to Wayland.

> * RockPro64, used as a desktop (I'm typing these words on it):
>   armsoc.  GNOME no workie.

Hows the 3D performance on this?

> * N900:
>   didn't try.  I don't suspect it could work, though.

N900, the 10 year old mobile phone?  Is GNOME in Debian configured to
use OpenGL ES, which is the only flavour this device talks?

> * qemu-kvm on work desktop:
>   [Host GPU is i915 (HD530)]: black screen in default buster's GNOME
>   (thus Wayland), Cinnamon at least gives a message.  Very likely something
>   with qemu's configuration -- but work time is not supposed to be spent
>   wrangling desktop environment problems, thus I did not investigate.

I had no problem starting gnome-shell with the qlx stuff, not that it
makes any sense to do that.

> On every single of the above setups XFCE works perfectly.

But have you tried GNOME on Xorg, which is the question of this thread?

Bastian

--
Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man.
                -- Klingon Soldier, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
In reply to this post by Adam Borowski-3
On 2019/04/07 17:59, Adam Borowski wrote:
> +1.  With GNOME not working even on some amd64 machines, it's not fit to be
> the default.  Technical reasons aside, the UI is non-ergonomic and
> counter-intuitive, has broken systray, and suffers from CSD.
>
> Once the black screen/crash problem is fixed, you may consider making
> Wayland and/or GNOME the default again, but for Buster, that's a pretty bad
> idea.

You're kind of hijacking the thread there. Not sure if it's by accident
though, the original question was about dropping wayland by default in
favour of going back to xorg, not about dropping Gnome for something else.

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) <jcc>
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Peter Silva
In reply to this post by Bastian Blank



> * RockPro64, used as a desktop (I'm typing these words on it):
>   armsoc.  GNOME no workie.

Hows the 3D performance on this?



71fps or es2gears? 

but that was a year ago... likely better now?


 
> * N900:
>   didn't try.  I don't suspect it could work, though.

N900, the 10 year old mobile phone?  Is GNOME in Debian configured to
use OpenGL ES, which is the only flavour this device talks?

> * qemu-kvm on work desktop:
>   [Host GPU is i915 (HD530)]: black screen in default buster's GNOME
>   (thus Wayland), Cinnamon at least gives a message.  Very likely something
>   with qemu's configuration -- but work time is not supposed to be spent
>   wrangling desktop environment problems, thus I did not investigate.

I had no problem starting gnome-shell with the qlx stuff, not that it
makes any sense to do that.

> On every single of the above setups XFCE works perfectly.

But have you tried GNOME on Xorg, which is the question of this thread?

Bastian

--
Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man.
                -- Klingon Soldier, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Paul Gevers-4
In reply to this post by Shengjing Zhu-3
Hi Shengjing,

On 07-04-2019 03:05, Shengjing Zhu wrote:
> This user case may be not enough to change the default choice of GNOME,
> but I think this should at least be in release notes.

Can you please file a bug against the release-notes package, ideally
with a proposed text?

Paul


signature.asc (499 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Adam Borowski-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carter (highvoltage)-2
On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 06:48:22PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

> On 2019/04/07 17:59, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > +1.  With GNOME not working even on some amd64 machines, it's not fit to be
> > the default.  Technical reasons aside, the UI is non-ergonomic and
> > counter-intuitive, has broken systray, and suffers from CSD.
> >
> > Once the black screen/crash problem is fixed, you may consider making
> > Wayland and/or GNOME the default again, but for Buster, that's a pretty bad
> > idea.
>
> You're kind of hijacking the thread there. Not sure if it's by accident
> though, the original question was about dropping wayland by default in
> favour of going back to xorg, not about dropping Gnome for something else.

Kind of, although only Gnome is in love with Wayland.

With Gnome's fallback gone, there are three main options (conflating other
DEs into one):

* Gnome on Wayland
* Gnome on 3D X
* XFCE/Mate/... on 2D X

The two first options are a compat nightmare (as shown on my hardware, both
old and new).  Meanwhile, XFCE's compositor is optional -- and if what you
want is Gnome, Mate is a nice contender here, that works everywhere.


Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Did ya know that typing "test -j8" instead of "ctest -j8"
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ will make your testsuite pass much faster, and fix bugs?
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Michael Gilbert-6
In reply to this post by Guillem Jover
On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 2:50 PM Guillem Jover wrote:
> I noticed that not all big desktop programs support Wayland natively
> (such as Chromium)

Patches for chromium would be very welcome [0], but it is of course
too late for buster.

Best wishes,
Mike

[0] http://bugs.debian.org/861796

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Jonathan Dowland
In reply to this post by Simon McVittie-7
Dear Simon

On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 10:20:26PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
>It's perhaps important to point out before this thread gets much further
>that Wayland is not like Xorg

Apologies for not being clearer in my original message. Thank you for clearing
that up.

>GNOME in buster has defaulted to Wayland mode since August 2017. The
>default could presumably be swapped back to X11, as we did for stretch,

Apparently Ubuntu decided that it was not suitable (yet) as the default
for 18.04, which was an LTS release, and still stuck with Xorg for 18.10.

I don't know what criteria they used to make that decision, but I would imagine
it should be very similar to ours. Especially for an LTS release. I also don't
know what the status is for 19.04 which is presumably expected soon.

>but I'm not sure whether post-hard-freeze is necessarily an appropriate
>time to do that.

The freeze is a tool we use to try and ensure a quality and orderly release.
If we collectively agree that this change is necessary for the quality of our
release, then I'd hope the release team would also agree that such a change was
worthy of a freeze exception. But both of these hypotheticals are a few steps
ahead of where we are now.

>If I understand correctly, the pattern that led to synaptic's removal is
>that it runs its full GUI as root, which isn't supported by the way many
>(all?) Wayland environments set up Xwayland.

I think that's right. I appreciate that this is has been considered a bad
approach to the problem for a long time, long before Wayland. I suspect,
but have not confirmed, that it is not the only program that will fail to
work properly in a Wayland environment. It's probably one of the more high
profile programs to break in Debian, though. Another I'd like to verify is
gparted.

Would the GNOME team kindly share with this thread the criteria that you folks
use to make your decision as to whether to default to Wayland in Debian?


Best wishes

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Andrey Rahmatullin-3
In reply to this post by Peter Silva
On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 01:08:42PM -0400, Peter Silva wrote:
> https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/27/rockpro64-rk3399-board-linux-review-ubuntu-18-04/
>
> 71fps or es2gears?
Is es2gears a benchmark, unlike glxgears?

--
WBR, wRAR

signature.asc (911 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Andrey Rahmatullin-3
In reply to this post by Adam Borowski-3
On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 05:59:38PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
>   * nvidia proprietary: doesn't work with new kernels.  
It does, even nvidia-legacy-304xx-kernel-dkms says "Building the kernel
modules has been tested up to Linux 4.20.".

--
WBR, wRAR

signature.asc (911 bytes) Download Attachment
12