is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Paul Wise via nm
On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:25 PM Mo Zhou wrote:

> I second that since I always refuse to use Wayland, due to

I'm currently using GNOME on Xorg because:

Under Wayland applications seem to have a problem displaying
fullscreen, for example totem only displays video in the upper left
corner of the screen, on both Intel and nouveau drivers.

There doesn't appear to be anything like devilspie in Debian for GNOME
on Wayland.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Bastian Blank
On Tue, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:44:45AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:25 PM Mo Zhou wrote:
> > I second that since I always refuse to use Wayland, due to
> I'm currently using GNOME on Xorg because:
> Under Wayland applications seem to have a problem displaying
> fullscreen, for example totem only displays video in the upper left
> corner of the screen, on both Intel and nouveau drivers.

You use your display in HiDPI mode or, worse, in fractional HiDPI mode?

At least with the later setting I had problems as well.  But usually all
the tools behave sane and my mpv knows about the real resolution and can
use it.

> There doesn't appear to be anything like devilspie in Debian for GNOME
> on Wayland.

This package is maintained by QA.

Regards,
Bastian

--
You!  What PLANET is this!
                -- McCoy, "The City on the Edge of Forever", stardate 3134.0

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

intrigeri-4
In reply to this post by Paul Wise via nm
Paul Wise:
> There doesn't appear to be anything like devilspie in Debian for GNOME
> on Wayland.

The "Auto Move Windows" GNOME Shell extension (in the
gnome-shell-extensions package) provides parts of
devilspie's functionality.

Cheers,
--
intrigeri

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Paul Wise via nm
In reply to this post by Bastian Blank
On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 2:09 PM Bastian Blank wrote:

> You use your display in HiDPI mode or, worse, in fractional HiDPI mode?

I don't own hardware that is new enough.

> mpv knows about the real resolution

Could you try totem too?

> This package is maintained by QA.

>From a user PoV the Maintainer field has little correlation with how
useful a package is, often it is the old unmaintained things that are
more useful since people stopped changing them in incompatible ways or
dropping useful features.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

John Scott-3
In reply to this post by Guillem Jover
> Even then, AFAIR Qt does not enable Wayland support by default, and it
> might need the following environment variables

Having installed the packages, I'm able to choose KDE's Wayland session from
SDDM and it works out-of-the-box. Applications don't run with Xwayland, and
I've stumbled on some Wayland-specific bugs that've been reported already.


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Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Simon McVittie-7
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
On Mon, 08 Apr 2019 at 14:26:04 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> Would the GNOME team kindly share with this thread the criteria that you folks
> use to make your decision as to whether to default to Wayland in Debian?

I didn't make that decision, so I can't cite any specific criteria.
Note that I don't consider myself to be a core member of the GNOME team:
I joined to help with maintenance of the lower-level bits like GLib, and
while I do help out with transitions and RC bug fixing in the higher-level
layers of the stack, anything I say should not be interpreted as some
sort of team policy or consensus.

The debian-devel mailing list is not an ideal way to reach the GNOME
team. I suspect that many team members might be deliberately avoiding the
-devel mailing list in an attempt to avoid their motivation being drained
by messages like many of the responses to this thread.

I've opened a bug against the gnome metapackage, cc'ing the -gtk-gnome
and -desktop mailing lists (and Jonathan), which I hope will result in
either a positive decision to follow upstream in keeping Wayland as the
default display protocol, or the revert that Jonathan advocated.

I would like to request that people who dislike GNOME, and would not
use it regardless of what we do in its downstream maintenance, should
not reiterate that opinion in the discussion of that bug (or in this
thread, for that matter). It isn't constructive and won't make Debian,
GNOME or GNOME-on-Debian better.

    smcv

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Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Adam Borowski-3
On Sat, Apr 20, 2019 at 09:06:22PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
> I would like to request that people who dislike GNOME, and would not
> use it regardless of what we do in its downstream maintenance, should
> not reiterate that opinion in the discussion of that bug (or in this
> thread, for that matter).

That's a very reasonable request for "I don't like GNOME because {poor
ergonomics,CSD,being counterintuitive,personal preference}" type of
opinions.  Those would be appropriate in a tasksel/d-i discussion, but
not here.  Apologies for even mentioning those reasons earlier.

But there's also the technical matter of "GNOME and/or Wayland don't work
at all on machine XYZ".  This _is_ relevant.

A good part of a Debian person's duties is testing stuff -- especially
shortly before a release.  If feature X doesn't work, it is up to us to
find that, regular users would complain only after the release when it's
way too late.  And here, we report that things have regressed.

Earlier in the thread, I posted a list of all machines I own, and a
report stating that I was unsuccessful attempting to even start GNOME
on any of them.  But, you may dismiss that as "fancy odd stuff" (although
a nVidia card in an amd64 machine is not that odd).  Thus, I just bought
a new boring ordinary machine with all pieces being mainstream, in part
specifically to be able to test mainstream stuff.  And it did not work,
in this case because of a dependency[1] -- but the result is the same.

Options that don't work on a substantial part of machines must either:
a) not be the default, or
b) autodetect and disable themselves

So while you're right to protest mixing personal preferences with
technical reasons, it's better to not bury reports that things do not
work.


Meow!

[1]. Hard-hangs during boot with systemd (even a purely text install),
works fine with sysvinit+xfce all the way.  As a detractor of systemd, it
is still my duty to substantiate the blame -- I've ordered a serial
console card to debug this, but received it only thursday evening then
departed for holidays friday right after work, thus didn't get around to
checking why it hangs.  But, a regular person would have no chance to even
try to troubleshoot, and conclude that "Debian sucks, it doesn't work".
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Did ya know that typing "test -j8" instead of "ctest -j8"
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ will make your testsuite pass much faster, and fix bugs?
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Simon McVittie-7
In reply to this post by Adam Borowski-3
On Sun, 07 Apr 2019 at 17:59:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> * an amd64 desktop:
>   * nouveau: way too crashy to be considered "working".

Please report this as a bug in the nouveau driver stack (sorry, I'm
not sure whether the kernel or Mesa is the right place).

If GNOME-on-Xorg doesn't work any better on this hardware than
GNOME-as-Wayland, then this bug isn't relevant to deciding whether GNOME
should default to Wayland mode or X11 mode.

>     With xfce, disabling the compositor makes it work.  With GNOME, it's
>     AFAIK not an option (the fallback is gone, right?).

GNOME Flashback (packaged as gnome-session-flashback in Debian) is the
closest equivalent of the fallback mode in stretch, but isn't really the
GNOME desktop environment: it's more like another GNOME fork alongside
Cinnamon and MATE.

>   * nvidia proprietary: doesn't work with new kernels.

My experience has been that it mostly does (SteamOS uses a recent
kernel and nvidia proprietary driver, via DKMS, on a system otherwise
heavily based on Debian 8), but I don't think the user-space part of
the proprietary driver supports Wayland. GNOME is meant to detect the
proprietary driver and fall back to Xorg mode automatically (if it
doesn't, please report that as a bug in gnome-session-bin, which is
where the supported/unsupported GPU detection lives).

> * Pine{64,book}:
>   simplefb.  GNOME no workie.
>
> * RockPro64, used as a desktop (I'm typing these words on it):
>   armsoc.  GNOME no workie.
>
> * N900:
>   didn't try.  I don't suspect it could work, though.
>
> * Gemini:
>   libhybris.  No way to run Wayland I guess, X GNOME probably either.

GNOME is designed for a desktop or laptop with a working GPU, and these
devices probably aren't that (the N900 certainly isn't). If the Clutter
toolkit used in GNOME Shell doesn't work on this hardware (likely),
then GNOME-on-Xorg won't work there either, which means making GNOME
default to X11 mode wouldn't improve its ability to run on these devices.

> * Omega OAN133:
>   crashes with a black screen (although it's been a while since I tried).

Sorry, I don't know what that device is. If it's a desktop or laptop
from the last few years with an otherwise working and supportable GPU,
please report a bug.

> * an i386 desktop (used as a pedestal for RockPro):
>   i915 [910GL].  Might or might not run, although the mandatory compositor
>   on hardware this old would cause such a slideshow on 2560x1600 that it
>   wouldn't be usable.

Wikipedia tells me this is a 2004 Pentium 4 chipset, which I
suspect is much too old for the Clutter toolkit used by GNOME Shell to
work: last time I tried running GNOME on an Intel GPU of comparable age,
I think the problem was that Clutter requires driver/hardware support for
non-power-of-two textures, which wasn't present.

However, if GNOME-on-Xorg doesn't work any better on this hardware than
GNOME-as-Wayland, then it isn't relevant to deciding whether GNOME
should default to Wayland mode or X11 mode.

    smcv

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Re: is Wayland mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Simon McVittie-7
In reply to this post by Adam Borowski-3
On Sat, 20 Apr 2019 at 23:17:15 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> But there's also the technical matter of "GNOME and/or Wayland don't work
> at all on machine XYZ".  This _is_ relevant.

Whether GNOME works on machine XYZ (at all) is relevant when deciding
whether the default desktop environment should be GNOME or something
else, but is not relevant when deciding whether GNOME should default to
Wayland or X11 mode.

The decision of whether GNOME defaults to Wayland or X11 mode is only
affected by whether GNOME-on-Xorg works better than GNOME-as-Wayland.

(Another option is to default to GNOME-as-Wayland, but expand the rules
in gnome-session-bin that force X11 mode on certain hardware and drivers,
which are already used for things like the proprietary nvidia driver.)

> [1]. Hard-hangs during boot with systemd (even a purely text install),
> works fine with sysvinit+xfce all the way.

This is certainly not a bug in GNOME's Wayland mode (a purely text
install doesn't have any X11 or Wayland), and making GNOME default to
Wayland mode would not do anything to solve it.

    smcv

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Re: is Wayland/Weston mature enough to be the default desktop choice in Buster?

Philipp Kern-6
In reply to this post by Guillem Jover
On 4/6/2019 11:41 PM, Guillem Jover wrote:
> Sure, and I've tried libinput with X.Org and for me it's the same subpar
> experience as on Wayland. The difference is that with X.Org I can install
> the synaptics driver.

I think it'd be worthwhile to try and articulate a bug report for
libinput as to what is sub par about it - apart from being subtly
different from synaptics. In particular I have found them to be very
responsive. Some touchpads do need quirks and they have documentation
how to record and replay touchpad input[1] for debugging purposes.

Both Linux (with libinput) and Windows (with "Precision" drivers) now go
the way of processing the events in software only rather than having
proprietary processing in the touchpad. Once the kinks are ironed out
that should actually yield a better, more consistent experience.

Kind regards and thanks
Philipp Kern

[1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/tools.html

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