openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

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openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Thomas L
Hi all,
It seems that openjdk-8 has been removed from Buster a few days ago. Why?? openjdk-11 is not a drop-in replacement for openjdk-8, lots of people (including me) will NEED openjdk-8 in Buster!
Regards,
Thomas
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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Emmanuel Bourg-3
Hi Thomas,

Our policy is to support only one version of OpenJDK per Debian release.
We don't have the resources to maintain more than one version during the
whole lifetime of a release. Buster will be supported until 2024 and Red
Hat has vowed to maintain OpenJDK 8 until 2023. That would leave OpenJDK
8 in Buster without security fixes for one year.

If you aren't ready to migrate to OpenJDK 11 yet I suggest sticking with
Stretch for the next 3 years. Alternatively, we may provide OpenJDK 8
for Buster in the backports repository, but we can't guarantee it'll be
actively maintained.

Emmanuel Bourg


Le 09/04/2019 à 16:18, Thomas L a écrit :
> Hi all,
> It seems that openjdk-8 has been removed from Buster a few days ago. Why?? openjdk-11 is not a drop-in replacement for openjdk-8, lots of people (including me) will NEED openjdk-8 in Buster!
> Regards,
> Thomas
>

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RE: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Thomas L
Hi Emmanuel,

Thank you for your answer.
As far as I know, Debian "n" is only fully supported up to Debian "n+1" + 1 year.
For example, full support of Strech will end on 2020.
After this date, the LTS only supports a subset of all the packages,
so it would not be crazy to let openjdk-8 unsupported during
Buster's LTS period (and as migration from 8 to 11 is quite complex
for big/entreprise software, I guess RedHat will extend
the support period to please its key-account customers anyway).
Having openjdk-8 in backports would be a nice workaround,
but I thought backports were for packages backported from Debian "n+1".
I'm pretty sure lots of users will like to have a simple way to install
openjdk-8 on Buster.

Regards,
Thomas

De : Emmanuel Bourg <[hidden email]>
Envoyé : mercredi 10 avril 2019 09:02
À : Thomas L; [hidden email]
Objet : Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?
 
Hi Thomas,

Our policy is to support only one version of OpenJDK per Debian release.
We don't have the resources to maintain more than one version during the
whole lifetime of a release. Buster will be supported until 2024 and Red
Hat has vowed to maintain OpenJDK 8 until 2023. That would leave OpenJDK
8 in Buster without security fixes for one year.

If you aren't ready to migrate to OpenJDK 11 yet I suggest sticking with
Stretch for the next 3 years. Alternatively, we may provide OpenJDK 8
for Buster in the backports repository, but we can't guarantee it'll be
actively maintained.

Emmanuel Bourg


Le 09/04/2019 à 16:18, Thomas L a écrit :
> Hi all,
> It seems that openjdk-8 has been removed from Buster a few days ago. Why?? openjdk-11 is not a drop-in replacement for openjdk-8, lots of people (including me) will NEED openjdk-8 in Buster!
> Regards,
> Thomas
>

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Thorsten Glaser-6
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:

> Stretch for the next 3 years. Alternatively, we may provide OpenJDK 8
> for Buster in the backports repository, but we can't guarantee it'll be

Ehm, you realise that openjdk-8 was removed from both unstable and
experimental recently? (This seems to have been from #915620 although
I read that bugreport as “remove old binaries for some architectures”
not “drop openjdk-8 from Debian completely”, especially as doko might
wish to prepare fixes for stretch from experimental?)

bye,
//mirabilos
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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Jonathan Dowland
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
> Our policy is to support only one version of OpenJDK per Debian release.

So this was a deliberate decision?  Can you point me at any public discussion
log? #915620 makes it look like it was a mistake.

> Buster will be supported until 2024 and Red Hat has vowed to maintain OpenJDK
> 8 until 2023. That would leave OpenJDK 8 in Buster without security fixes for
> one year.

Security fixes *from Red Hat*, sure. It's quite possible others will provide
security support after 2023. Or even that Red Hat extend their commitment.
However this does sound mostly reasonable, if seemingly post-hoc justification.

Except: have you any confidence that all the Java applications in Debian
actually work properly with OpenJDK 11? Red Hat still have hard dependencies
on Java 8 for much of their stuff, including Maven.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Emmanuel Bourg-3
Le 24/04/2019 à 10:13, Jonathan Dowland a écrit :
>
> So this was a deliberate decision?  Can you point me at any public
> discussion log? #915620 makes it look like it was a mistake.

The removal from testing was intended (we already shipped only one JDK
in the last two releases), but the removal from unstable was a mistake.
We'll need OpenJDK 8 to bootstrap SBT (and probably Kotlin too) after
the Buster release.


> Except: have you any confidence that all the Java applications in Debian
> actually work properly with OpenJDK 11?

Yes, we've worked hard on the transition to Java 11, fixing more than
500 issues over a year. Incompatible packages have been either upgraded,
fixed or removed. The notable exception right now is netbeans (#925509).


> Red Hat still have hard dependencies on Java 8
> for much of their stuff, including Maven.

Maven 3.6 works very well with OpenJDK 11. It currently builds more than
550 packages flawlessly in Buster.

Emmanuel Bourg

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Re: ~ Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Jonathan Dowland
Hi Emmanuel, thanks for the prompt reply!

On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:56:19AM +0200, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>The removal from testing was intended (we already shipped only one JDK
>in the last two releases), but the removal from unstable was a mistake.
>We'll need OpenJDK 8 to bootstrap SBT (and probably Kotlin too) after
>the Buster release.

OK thanks. My Red Hat colleagues describe this as "brave" :-)

>Yes, we've worked hard on the transition to Java 11, fixing more than
>500 issues over a year. Incompatible packages have been either upgraded,
>fixed or removed. The notable exception right now is netbeans (#925509).

That's great news. Debian is actually trail blazing on this then!

>Maven 3.6 works very well with OpenJDK 11. It currently builds more than
>550 packages flawlessly in Buster.

Ah yes. RHEL7 have Maven 3.5 rather than .6, that might be relevant.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Andreas Schildbach-2
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On 24/04/2019 10.56, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:

> Yes, we've worked hard on the transition to Java 11, fixing more than
> 500 issues over a year. Incompatible packages have been either upgraded,
> fixed or removed. The notable exception right now is netbeans (#925509).

The other notable exception is building apps for Android, since the
versions of Android Gradle plugin you can use due to Gradle 4.4 are
quite old (and the version included in Debian is ancient).

I'm happy for now that at least Ubuntu decided to keep OpenJDK 8 in its
repository.

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Timo Aaltonen-4
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On 24.4.2019 11.56, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Le 24/04/2019 à 10:13, Jonathan Dowland a écrit :
>>
>> So this was a deliberate decision?  Can you point me at any public
>> discussion log? #915620 makes it look like it was a mistake.
>
> The removal from testing was intended (we already shipped only one JDK
> in the last two releases), but the removal from unstable was a mistake.
> We'll need OpenJDK 8 to bootstrap SBT (and probably Kotlin too) after
> the Buster release.

Any idea when JDK8 will return? I'd need it for testing dogtag/freeipa
server.


--
t

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Emmanuel Bourg-3
Le 25/04/2019 à 18:27, Timo Aaltonen a écrit :

> Any idea when JDK8 will return? I'd need it for testing dogtag/freeipa
> server.

I've uploaded it yesterday, it's in the NEW queue.

https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/openjdk-8_8u212-b01-2.html

Emmanuel Bourg

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Timo Aaltonen-4
On 25.4.2019 19.36, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Le 25/04/2019 à 18:27, Timo Aaltonen a écrit :
>
>> Any idea when JDK8 will return? I'd need it for testing dogtag/freeipa
>> server.
>
> I've uploaded it yesterday, it's in the NEW queue.
>
> https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/openjdk-8_8u212-b01-2.html

excellent, thanks!


--
t

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Matthias Klose
In reply to this post by Emmanuel Bourg-3
On 25.04.19 18:36, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Le 25/04/2019 à 18:27, Timo Aaltonen a écrit :
>
>> Any idea when JDK8 will return? I'd need it for testing dogtag/freeipa
>> server.
>
> I've uploaded it yesterday, it's in the NEW queue.
>
> https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/openjdk-8_8u212-b01-2.html

How is this supposed to bootstrap? Moritz asked ftp-master to restore the
removed binaries instead.

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Emmanuel Bourg-3
Le 28/04/2019 à 10:07, Matthias Klose a écrit :

> How is this supposed to bootstrap? Moritz asked ftp-master to restore the
> removed binaries instead.

Good point, I forgot about this. I guess it could be tweaked to build
with openjdk-11 but I haven't tried.

Thank you Moritz.

Emmanuel Bourg

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RE: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Thomas L
In reply to this post by Thomas L
It seems that openjdk-8 was also removed from jessie-backports.
Why? Is it a mistake?

Regards
Thomas
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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Markus Koschany-2
Hello,

Am 29.04.19 um 17:29 schrieb Thomas L:
> It seems that openjdk-8 was also removed from jessie-backports.
> Why? Is it a mistake?

jessie-backports is obsolete and no longer supported.

Regards,

Markus


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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Hans-Christoph Steiner-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Schildbach-2


Andreas Schildbach:

> On 24/04/2019 10.56, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>
>> Yes, we've worked hard on the transition to Java 11, fixing more than
>> 500 issues over a year. Incompatible packages have been either upgraded,
>> fixed or removed. The notable exception right now is netbeans (#925509).
>
> The other notable exception is building apps for Android, since the
> versions of Android Gradle plugin you can use due to Gradle 4.4 are
> quite old (and the version included in Debian is ancient).
>
> I'm happy for now that at least Ubuntu decided to keep OpenJDK 8 in its
> repository.

(I'm responding mostly as an FYI, I think it is OK for Debian to drop
OpenJDK 8.)

It is also not possible to run upstream Gradle binaries older than 4.8
or 4.7.  It is a stupid bug on Gradle's part, but nonetheless, those
versions work with OpenJDK 8.  I guess the Debian package of gradle
fixed the issue, since it is gradle 4.4.

Android Studio ships with its own (really old) embedded copy of
OpenJDK8, so Android developers on Debian will need to do:

export JAVA_HOME=/path/to/android-studio/jre

.hc

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Re: openjdk-8 removed from Buster?

Andreas Schildbach-2
On 30/04/2019 15.21, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote:

> It is also not possible to run upstream Gradle binaries older than 4.8
> or 4.7.  It is a stupid bug on Gradle's part, but nonetheless, those
> versions work with OpenJDK 8.  I guess the Debian package of gradle
> fixed the issue, since it is gradle 4.4.

Yes, the Debian/Ubuntu version of Gradle 4.4.1 was fixed to also work
with OpenJDK 11 besides OpenJDK 8.

> Android Studio ships with its own (really old) embedded copy of
> OpenJDK8, so Android developers on Debian will need to do:
>
> export JAVA_HOME=/path/to/android-studio/jre

Note this is not an option for headless machines (build servers). And
also not for about half of Android devs who use Eclipse or IntelliJ (as
those don't come bundled with a JDK).

Yesterday I heard Ubuntu 19.10 will ship with OpenJDK 8, 11 and 13. I
think it makes sense to have a (limited) amount of versions to pick
from, just like with Python 2, 3 and 3.7 or GCC 8/9.