piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
96 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

lee-5
Jonathan Dowland <[hidden email]> writes:

> The tech-ctte exploration was extremely thorough, entirely transparent and I
> cannot think of any example of a more transparent decision making process in
> any other Linux community.  Not only that, but the entire decision could be
> overridden by a GR, which *any* developer could raise, at any time (and still
> can). And the eventual outcome wasn't "there will be one init system", which
> would be *considerably* easier for the project to manage, but that we support
> *multiple* init systems! A tremendously more complex task. Red Hat aren't doing
> that. Fedora aren't doing that. Ubuntu aren't doing that.

Why doesn't Debian just do a GR on this issue?

It would be interesting to see what the devs/maintainers would vote for,
and it might give everyone quite a bit a of re-assurance and
piece-of-mind.

Perhaps just having a GR would ignore the established way of initiating
one and having it would create a case of precedence.  I don't see how
that would be a problem, even less so since switching to a different
init system is, AFAIK, unprecedented in Debian.

Perhaps this is an issue for which to decide about the established ways
are not sufficient.

Considering that the users are Debians' priority, couldn't this issue be
a case in which significant concerns from/of the users about an issue
might initiate a GR?  Wouldn't it speak loudly for Debian and its ways
and for what it stands for, or used to stand for, if it was established
procedure that issues arising significant concerns amongst the users can
lead to a GR?

I'm sure we could find quite a few supporters for having a GR amongst
the users (here).  And after all, we're all kinda stuck in the same
boat.  A GR might have the potential to make the gap between users and
devs/maintainers a lot smaller.  Otherwise, this gap will only continue
to become wider and wider.


--
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us.  Finally, this fear has become reasonable.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/8738atz2m6.fsf@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Dr. Bas Wijnen-2
[Moving this to -project, where it belongs; please follow up only
there, not on -user or -devel.]

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 06:18:01PM +0200, lee wrote:
> Why doesn't Debian just do a GR on this issue?

Because for a GR, a member of Debian has to request it and it needs to
be seconded by at least 5 other members (constitution 4.2.1, 4.2.7).
This has not happened.

> It would be interesting to see what the devs/maintainers would vote for,
> and it might give everyone quite a bit a of re-assurance and
> piece-of-mind.

Given that there have not been 6 members asking for this vote, I don't
see a lot of unrest.

> Considering that the users are Debians' priority, couldn't this issue be
> a case in which significant concerns from/of the users about an issue
> might initiate a GR?

No. Debian is a very elitist organization.  The members decide what to
do, and nobody else does.  As a whole we rule over our users with
enlightened absolutism.  The main difference with rulers of countries is
that our users can go away more easily. ;-)

Debian is extremely democratic for its members, but it is utterly
undemocratic for its users.  And there's nothing wrong with that, IMO.

> Wouldn't it speak loudly for Debian and its ways and for what it
> stands for, or used to stand for, if it was established procedure that
> issues arising significant concerns amongst the users can lead to a
> GR?

I'll speak for myself here: I don't really care about the init system.
I am unhappy with the emotions that this debate is causing, but I'm not
very interested in the technical parts.  From what I see on the mailing
lists, it seems that a few users are very unhappy and they keep bringing
this up.  But if this would be a big issue for many people, then there
should be no problem finding 6 members to start a GR (our members are
users, too).  That still hasn't happened, so I conclude that it isn't a
big issue.

> I'm sure we could find quite a few supporters for having a GR amongst
> the users (here).  And after all, we're all kinda stuck in the same
> boat.  A GR might have the potential to make the gap between users and
> devs/maintainers a lot smaller.  Otherwise, this gap will only continue
> to become wider and wider.

There are many members.  If you can't manage to convince 6 of them, we
don't consider it a big issue.  You may disagree, but that's Debian's
rules.

Thanks,
Bas

signature.asc (853 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Matthias Urlichs-3
In reply to this post by lee-5
Hi,

lee:
> I'm sure we could find quite a few supporters for having a GR amongst
> the users (here).

We don't do a GR among our users. We do that among Debian
members/maintainers/developers/take-your-pick.

Of those, most …
* are perfectly happy with the TC's decision
* can live with it
* are unhappy, but think that to continue discussing this is way worse
  than biting the bullet and getting on with actual work
  * you do know that we plan to release Jessie sometime this decade,
    right?
* are disillusioned about it all and decided to stand aside

Judging by the last couple of months, the rest appears to number <6 people.

--
-- Matthias Urlichs

signature.asc (836 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Miles Fidelman-3
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi,
>
> lee:
>> I'm sure we could find quite a few supporters for having a GR amongst
>> the users (here).
> We don't do a GR among our users. We do that among Debian
> members/maintainers/developers/take-your-pick.

Which does kind of lead back to the question of what's the point of a
social contract that says users and their needs are the priority.

> Of those, most …
> * are perfectly happy with the TC's decision
> * can live with it
> * are unhappy, but think that to continue discussing this is way worse
>    than biting the bullet and getting on with actual work
>    * you do know that we plan to release Jessie sometime this decade,
>      right?
> * are disillusioned about it all and decided to stand aside
>
> Judging by the last couple of months, the rest appears to number <6 people.
>

A lot more than that, by my count.

Also.. it occurs to me that another constituency, that is probably not
well represented, are upstream developers.

Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream
developers - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no
say in the matter.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543BBE9C.5030601@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Thorsten Glaser
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream developers

I’m both, and I joined Debian to try to make an impact…

> - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no say in the
> matter.

… but even then, am drowned by the masses.

(I did not have the chance to Second the GR proposal
because I was not even aware that there *was* one.)

bye,
//mirabilos
--
[16:04:33] bkix: "veni vidi violini"
[16:04:45] bkix: "ich kam, sah und vergeigte"...


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.DEB.2.11.1410131420190.28621@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Charles Plessy-12
Le Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 02:21:45PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
>
> … but even then, am drowned by the masses.

No, you are drowning the masses under your emails, that is different.

--
Charles


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013122644.GB3204@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Neil Williams-4
In reply to this post by Thorsten Glaser
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 14:21:45 +0200
Thorsten Glaser <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
> > Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream
> > developers
>
> I’m both, and I joined Debian to try to make an impact…
>
> > - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no say
> > in the matter.
>
> … but even then, am drowned by the masses.
>
> (I did not have the chance to Second the GR proposal
> because I was not even aware that there *was* one.)
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/

Same procedure as previous calls for GR: debian-vote mailing list. If
it had received some public seconds, it would have had a wider
announcement and a listing on https://www.debian.org/vote/

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00000.html

After a lot of discussion, resulting in:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00188.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/03/msg00189.html
"Withdrawal of Proposal"

Lack of support for the GR (from those entitled to vote upon the GR)
was the declared reason for withdrawal.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/


signature.asc (836 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Thorsten Glaser-7
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Neil Williams wrote:

> > (I did not have the chance to Second the GR proposal
> > because I was not even aware that there *was* one.)
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/
>
> Same procedure as previous calls for GR: debian-vote mailing list. If

Yeah, surprise, I don’t read every list. I haven’t been
that long with Debian to know about previous votes, except
DPL elections. I’m subscribed to about the bare minimum,
and only occasionally look into others. And d-vote wasn’t
mentioned in the “welcome” eMail either.

OK, I probably should have done more research myself.
But for that, I would still have needed to know that
I should do that.

Meh, anyway.

bye,
//mirabilos
--
This space for rent.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.DEB.2.11.1410131514490.28621@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Matthias Urlichs-3
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman-3
Hi,

Miles Fidelman:
> >Judging by the last couple of months, the rest appears to number <6 people.
>
> A lot more than that, by my count.
>
Then the question is why almost all of these "lot more" people did not
second the GR proposal.

> Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream
> developers - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no say
> in the matter.
>
Correct. So? Debian consists of its members, i.e. people working (in
whatever capacity) on Debian itself. _Using_ a distribution does not
in itself constitute working on it. Neither does work on an Upstream package.

If you want to change that and include users and/or Upstream developers in
our constituency more directly, you're free to go ahead and draft/discuss
a GR for that. (I might even support it.)

But please don't just do this in the context of yet another attempt to
express dissatisfaction with the fact that our TC chose systemd:
if you do, I do not think you'll achieve anything except more annoyance
about the fact that we're discussing this *again*, and further regression
to a discussion climate where each&every mention of systemd automatically
raises hackles on both "sides".

Which will do any number of things, but not improve Debian.
And that's, ostensibly, what we're all here for.

In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out
to be unsatisfactory. Likewise, upstream developers can refuse to include
unit files or systemd-supporting tidbits (like socket activation) in their
source code.

Fact is that the vast majority of them don't. There has been no huge outcry
among Fedora users about switching to systemd, for example. So, frankly,
there doesn't seem to be a need to maufacture one here.

I'm not accusing you of doing so, mind you, but sometimes that is what
these repeated attempts to warm up Debian's systemd discussion look like.

--
-- Matthias Urlichs


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013140643.GN3964@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Miles Fidelman-3
Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Miles Fidelman:
>>> Judging by the last couple of months, the rest appears to number <6 people.
>> A lot more than that, by my count.
>>
> Then the question is why almost all of these "lot more" people did not
> second the GR proposal.

Well... as a couple of people have now pointed out, at least some people
didn't know about it.

In reading through the archives, I have to say that the GR proposal was
both buried in all the broader discussion of systemd, rather long and
convoluted reading, and not well publicized.

I do wonder what would happen if a clearly worded proposal (e.g., start
with "maintain systemv init as the default system" or "require that
packages not depend on systemd running as PID1") were well publicized,
today.


>
>> Those who are most impacted are sys admins of servers, and upstream
>> developers - the two communities most impacted, but that seem to have no say
>> in the matter.
>>
> Correct. So? Debian consists of its members, i.e. people working (in
> whatever capacity) on Debian itself. _Using_ a distribution does not
> in itself constitute working on it. Neither does work on an Upstream package.

Given a policy that stresses the primacy of users, it disturbs me that
the technical committee and "members" don't seem to be paying any attention.

And... if a platform's technical leadership doesn't care about those who
develop for that platform, that concerns me as well.
>
> If you want to change that and include users and/or Upstream developers in
> our constituency more directly, you're free to go ahead and draft/discuss
> a GR for that. (I might even support it.)

Given that I have servers to run, and a full-time job that has nothing
to do with that set of responsibilities -- I'm putting my efforts into:
- stretching out the lifetime of my current Debian installations
- looking for a new platform to migrate to

Somehow, neither of these seems like a great investment of time:
- wading through every single dependency that systemd might impact
- politicking (especially as I'm NOT a Debian developer eligible to
propose or vote on GRs) - and this debacle has convinced me it's not
worth becoming one

>
> In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
> on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out
> to be unsatisfactory. Likewise, upstream developers can refuse to include
> unit files or systemd-supporting tidbits (like socket activation) in their
> source code.

It sure would be interesting to survey folks on this.  I expect I'm not
the only one busily looking for an exit.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543BE5D2.1070504@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Ian Jackson-2
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
Miles Fidelman writes ("Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)"):
> In reading through the archives, I have to say that the GR proposal was
> both buried in all the broader discussion of systemd, rather long and
> convoluted reading, and not well publicized.

If four other DDs send me and Matthew Vernon private email to say that
they would support a GR on this subject, I will restart this
conversation on -project.

Until a total of six DDs want a GR, we should drop this topic.

Ian.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/21563.60534.190732.528749@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-5
I really don't buy the argument that "the GR proposal was too quiet to
be noticed by 6+ people". I mean: the proposition happened to be in the
middle of the post-TC decision wave, on the mailing lists where it
belonged. The people who cared about the whole "default init for Debian"
question _were_ following and contributing to these various lists. I'm
therefore claiming that the people who missed the GR proposal were not
sufficiently interested (otherwise they would've been subscribed to
either -vote or -project, where these proposals belong). I'm also
thankful that the proposer limited his proposal to these lists (I'd have
considered a spread of the call over -devel, -user or other lists an
abuse).

Le lundi, 13 octobre 2014, 16.15:02 Ian Jackson a écrit :
> If four other DDs send me and Matthew Vernon private email to say that
> they would support a GR on this subject, I will restart this
> conversation on -project.

Doing this now despite the fact that the GR didn't reach its 6 seconds,
7 months ago, will lead to an incredibly bigger waste of time, just when
we're about to freeze testing.

The GR train passed…

Cheers,
OdyX


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/17667995.ybzVghadep@gyllingar

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Miles Fidelman-3
Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:

> I really don't buy the argument that "the GR proposal was too quiet to
> be noticed by 6+ people". I mean: the proposition happened to be in the
> middle of the post-TC decision wave, on the mailing lists where it
> belonged. The people who cared about the whole "default init for Debian"
> question _were_ following and contributing to these various lists. I'm
> therefore claiming that the people who missed the GR proposal were not
> sufficiently interested (otherwise they would've been subscribed to
> either -vote or -project, where these proposals belong). I'm also
> thankful that the proposer limited his proposal to these lists (I'd have
> considered a spread of the call over -devel, -user or other lists an
> abuse).
>
>

Actually - I'd contest that, for four reasons:

- as I've previously noted - the major impacts of systemd are being
(going to be) felt by sysadmins and upstream developers - who don't
necessarily follow debian-devel all that closely -- or have input

- the actual GR call for vote was buried on debian-vote - immediately
jumped on regarding wording and procedural discussions

- actual discussion of the GR on -devel was completely swamped by all
the other discussion of systemd

- folks have just now pointed to the -project list --- this is the first
I've ever heard of that list - and I note that it is not even listed on
https://lists.debian.org/users.html or
https://lists.debian.org/devel.html -- only on the full list of lists,
where it's buried without a description of what it's for

Miles Fidelman


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543BFC64.4050709@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Matthias Klumpp-2
2014-10-13 18:23 GMT+02:00 Miles Fidelman <[hidden email]>:

> Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
>>
>> I really don't buy the argument that "the GR proposal was too quiet to
>> be noticed by 6+ people". I mean: the proposition happened to be in the
>> middle of the post-TC decision wave, on the mailing lists where it
>> belonged. The people who cared about the whole "default init for Debian"
>> question _were_ following and contributing to these various lists. I'm
>> therefore claiming that the people who missed the GR proposal were not
>> sufficiently interested (otherwise they would've been subscribed to
>> either -vote or -project, where these proposals belong). I'm also
>> thankful that the proposer limited his proposal to these lists (I'd have
>> considered a spread of the call over -devel, -user or other lists an
>> abuse).
>>
>>
>
> Actually - I'd contest that, for four reasons:
>
> - as I've previously noted - the major impacts of systemd are being (going
> to be) felt by sysadmins and upstream developers - who don't necessarily
> follow debian-devel all that closely -- or have input
>
> - the actual GR call for vote was buried on debian-vote - immediately jumped
> on regarding wording and procedural discussions
You do understand that we have procedured at Debian to handle stuff
like GR proposals, right? And that procedure involves posting to
debian-vote, so doing that was the right thing to do.


> - actual discussion of the GR on -devel was completely swamped by all the
> other discussion of systemd
That's why it was posted to -vote, where it belonged to.

> - folks have just now pointed to the -project list --- this is the first
> I've ever heard of that list - and I note that it is not even listed on
> https://lists.debian.org/users.html or https://lists.debian.org/devel.html
> -- only on the full list of lists, where it's buried without a description
> of what it's for
Debian Developers know of this (or at least should know of these lists
and subscibe to the ones they are interested in). Since we are
building the distribution and have to carry the additional work our
decisions cause, it's good to follow well-established procedures. That
was done here, and the attempt has failed.
If users notice these project-internal things is not really a concern
- for users we write release notes, and encourage involvement in
discussions about the subject (or even explicitly request feedback).
So, there is really nothing wrong or broken here, everything works as it should.
And the thing we have to do now is to make Jessie as good as possible,
and the systemd transition as painless and bug-free as possible. And
of course, also document what people need to do if they want sysvinit
instead of systemd.
Cheers,
    Matthias



--
I welcome VSRE emails. See http://vsre.info/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKNHny8jefmHuHiecO_bnvncMOrQ-28zNd3Fe3sOCdAKHW3QXQ@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
In reply to this post by Matthias Urlichs-3
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
> on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out

Which, I should add, is something we measure if the user installs
popularity-contest and opts-in to its measurements.

http://popcon.debian.org/

--
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013170138.GA20689@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Miles Fidelman-3
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>> In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
>> on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out
> Which, I should add, is something we measure if the user installs
> popularity-contest and opts-in to its measurements.
>
> http://popcon.debian.org/
>

which sure seems to reinforce the popularity of sysvinit

18    sysvinit                       697126 583755 44903 63528  4940
19    imagemagick                    671330 54630 97400 59765 459535
20    pam                            664835 424521 161793 74475  4046
21    evolution-data-server          661614 129835 138891 91065 301823
22    perl                           642831 412336 121683 76726 32086
23    systemd                        630568 287748 54129 57693 230998


Then again, how much of that is simply an artifact of default
initialization, vs. by choice, is unclear.



--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/543C0A84.1080403@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> >On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> >>In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
> >>on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out
> >Which, I should add, is something we measure if the user installs
> >popularity-contest and opts-in to its measurements.
> >
> >http://popcon.debian.org/
>
> which sure seems to reinforce the popularity of sysvinit

...

> Then again, how much of that is simply an artifact of default
> initialization, vs. by choice, is unclear.

Right now it is the "defaults" effect, because Debian stable is included in
the report.  We don't have a "testing + unstable" report.

"Statistics per popularity-contest releases" gives you an approximate
breakdown of what is in the "all" report, I think.

We will only have decent data on this about six months after jessie becomes
stable.  But it will be useful nonetheless.

Being able to filter reports to consider only those from testing+unstable
might make it more useful at the shorter term, though.

--
  "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
  them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
  where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
  Henrique Holschuh


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141013175522.GB20689@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Ansgar Burchardt-8
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman-3
Hi,

[ Please followup on -user@, there is no need to have this on two
  lists. ]

Miles Fidelman <[hidden email]> writes:
> Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
>> http://popcon.debian.org/
>
> which sure seems to reinforce the popularity of sysvinit
>
> 18    sysvinit                       697126 583755 44903 63528  4940

Not really: sysvinit is the (only) supported init system in (old)stable
which is also included in the result.

But in Jessie the init part is provided by the new sysvinit-core
package. So we can compare the installation numbers of systemd-sysv and
sysvinit-core to see what people have installed in Jessie.

As [1] shows the majority of Jessie users have migrated to systemd,
probably as an effect of GNOME starting to depend on it (around May
2014) and the new init package (around June 2014).

Ansgar

  [1] <https://qa.debian.org/popcon-graph.php?packages=systemd-sysv+upstart+openrc+systemd-shim+sysvinit-core&show_installed=on&want_legend=on&want_ticks=on&from_date=2014-01-01&to_date=&hlght_date=&date_fmt=%25Y-%25m&beenhere=1>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87y4sjon24.fsf@...

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Didier 'OdyX' Raboud-3
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman-3
Le lundi, 13 octobre 2014, 12.23:00 Miles Fidelman a écrit :
> Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> > I really don't buy the argument that "the GR proposal was too quiet
> > to be noticed by 6+ people".
>
> Actually - I'd contest that, for four reasons:
>
> - as I've previously noted - the major impacts of systemd are being
> (going to be) felt by sysadmins and upstream developers - who don't
> necessarily follow debian-devel all that closely -- or have input

Mind you, most if not all of the CTTE are both sysadmins and upstream
developers, and I'd go as far as saying that most of DDs are either too.

> - the actual GR call for vote was buried on debian-vote - immediately
> jumped on regarding wording and procedural discussions

Yes, and? There was a proposal on -vote, which could have been followed
by seconds, totally ignoring the side-discussions. Don't expect
launching a GR about a) overriding a Debian body; b) the default init
system to be a quiet ride.

> - actual discussion of the GR on -devel was completely swamped by all
> the other discussion of systemd

My feeling is that the swamping happened because some people disagreeing
with the CTTE vote vented a lot of frustration through whining and
complaining instead of focusing their energy to formulate a concrete
proposal for a GR.

We're talking about finding _6_ seconds, so I'd only buy this argument
if the threshold was 50 (or so) and we'd have only found a dozen
seconds.

OdyX


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2605439.lZGhNDzrLW@gyllingar

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)

Jeroen Dekkers-3
In reply to this post by Miles Fidelman-3
At Mon, 13 Oct 2014 13:23:16 -0400,
Miles Fidelman wrote:

>
> Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Oct 2014, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> >> In any case, users _do_ have a say. They can force their systems to remain
> >> on sys5 init, or switch to a different distro if that should also turn out
> > Which, I should add, is something we measure if the user installs
> > popularity-contest and opts-in to its measurements.
> >
> > http://popcon.debian.org/
> >
>
> which sure seems to reinforce the popularity of sysvinit
>
> 18    sysvinit                       697126 583755 44903 63528  4940
> 19    imagemagick                    671330 54630 97400 59765 459535
> 20    pam                            664835 424521 161793 74475  4046
> 21    evolution-data-server          661614 129835 138891 91065 301823
> 22    perl                           642831 412336 121683 76726 32086
> 23    systemd                        630568 287748 54129 57693 230998
>
>
> Then again, how much of that is simply an artifact of default
> initialization, vs. by choice, is unclear.

Comparing those source packages is just comparing the previous
essential sysvinit package against udev. If you want a better picture
you should look at systemd-sysv versus sysvinit-core:

2335  systemd-sysv                   19845 14413   925  4504     3 (Debian Systemd Maintainers)
4623  sysvinit-core                   5634  4866   576   191     1 (Debian Sysvinit Maintainers)

Sysvinit-core was introduced in jessie and systemd-sysv conflicts with
sysvinit-core. Systemd-sysv is also available in wheezy, but there are
24486 reports from the popcon version 1.61 (testing/unstable) which
means only about 1000 of the systemd-sysv installs seem to be from
wheezy. So a big majority of the testing/unstable users don't seem to
have a problem with systemd, just like a majority of the DDs don't
have a problem with systemd or else we would already have had a GR.

It would be nice if the minority which doesn't like systemd would just
accept that systemd is the default init system in jessie and that the
majority of developers and users don't seem to have any problem with
that.

Kind regards,

Jeroen Dekkers


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]
Archive: <a href="https://lists.debian.org/87wq83lt6p.wl%jeroen@dekkers.ch">https://lists.debian.org/87wq83lt6p.wl%jeroen@...

12345