"I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
183 messages Options
1234 ... 10
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

"I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

H.S.

Just saw this in the following piece:
http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html

"Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous impact
on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do consider Ubuntu to
be Debian). ..."

->HS


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Raquel Rice
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:44:38 -0400
"H.S." <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Just saw this in the following piece:
> http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html
>
> "Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous
> impact  on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do
> consider Ubuntu to  be Debian). ..."
>
> ->HS
>

I consider my neighbor to be a fool.  Does that mean he is?  I don't
believe his family and friends would agree.

--
Raquel
============================================================
To be nobody - but - yourself ... in a world which is doing its best
night and day, to make you everybody else ... means to fight the
hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop
fighting.
  --e. e. cummings


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Hal Vaughan
On Monday 19 March 2007 13:01, Raquel wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:44:38 -0400
>
> "H.S." <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Just saw this in the following piece:
> > http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html
> >
> > "Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous
> > impact  on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do
> > consider Ubuntu to  be Debian). ..."
> >
> > ->HS
>
> I consider my neighbor to be a fool.  Does that mean he is?  I don't
> believe his family and friends would agree.
>
> --
> Raquel

If you're a psychologist and have a lot of credentials to prove you know
what you're talking about when you call your neighbor a fool, then it
might.  (Ignoring the psychological principal that often people call
others names they don't want to admit apply to themselves -- it's
called projection.)  

On the other hand, if someone is Ian Murdock and the "Ian" in his name
is where the last 3 letters in "DebIAN" come from, AND he just happens
to be the creator of the distro, then perhaps that means he has some
authority and knows what he's talking about.

Hal


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Ron Johnson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/07 12:35, Hal Vaughan wrote:

> On Monday 19 March 2007 13:01, Raquel wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:44:38 -0400
>>
>> "H.S." <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Just saw this in the following piece:
>>> http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html
>>>
>>> "Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous
>>> impact  on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do
>>> consider Ubuntu to  be Debian). ..."
>>>
>>> ->HS
>> I consider my neighbor to be a fool.  Does that mean he is?  I don't
>> believe his family and friends would agree.
>>
>> --
>> Raquel
>
> If you're a psychologist and have a lot of credentials to prove you know
> what you're talking about when you call your neighbor a fool, then it
> might.  (Ignoring the psychological principal that often people call
> others names they don't want to admit apply to themselves -- it's
> called projection.)  
>
> On the other hand, if someone is Ian Murdock and the "Ian" in his name
> is where the last 3 letters in "DebIAN" come from, AND he just happens
> to be the creator of the distro, then perhaps that means he has some
> authority and knows what he's talking about.

Shame on you Hal, for stooping to Proof by Appeal to Authority.

>
> Hal
>
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFF/syYS9HxQb37XmcRAiLXAKCdCZ+iOz/yG/Y7iO6Jl6DEar+ChwCfZ38n
L5/ea3f6UHZu/710e4GQW4o=
=/Hgi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Jorge Morais-3
In reply to this post by H.S.
So this is something like
"Ubuntu considered Debian"
?
:)

--
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Hal Vaughan
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On Monday 19 March 2007 13:47, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 03/19/07 12:35, Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > On Monday 19 March 2007 13:01, Raquel wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:44:38 -0400
> >>
> >> "H.S." <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Just saw this in the following piece:
> >>> http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html
> >>>
> >>> "Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous
> >>> impact  on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do
> >>> consider Ubuntu to  be Debian). ..."
> >>>
> >>> ->HS
> >>
> >> I consider my neighbor to be a fool.  Does that mean he is?  I
> >> don't believe his family and friends would agree.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Raquel
> >
> > If you're a psychologist and have a lot of credentials to prove you
> > know what you're talking about when you call your neighbor a fool,
> > then it might.  (Ignoring the psychological principal that often
> > people call others names they don't want to admit apply to
> > themselves -- it's called projection.)
> >
> > On the other hand, if someone is Ian Murdock and the "Ian" in his
> > name is where the last 3 letters in "DebIAN" come from, AND he just
> > happens to be the creator of the distro, then perhaps that means he
> > has some authority and knows what he's talking about.
>
> Shame on you Hal, for stooping to Proof by Appeal to Authority.

It's not authority, it's expertise.

Hal


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Kent West
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 03/19/07 12:35, Hal Vaughan wrote:
>> ... perhaps that means he has some
>> authority and knows what he's talking about.
>>    
>
> Shame on you Hal, for stooping to Proof by Appeal to Authority.
>  

An Appeal to Authority is not always an invalid tactic. (Although it
often is.)

--
Kent


--
Kent West
http://kentwest.blogspot.com <http://kentwest.blogspot.com/>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Jorge Morais-3
An Appeal to Authority is not always an invalid tactic. (Although it
often is.)

Agreed. This is a common confusion. People tend to refute Ad Hominen or Appeal to Authority, but they are often valid.

If you claim that I am sick, I'll trust you more if you are a doctor.
This is appeal to authority, and valid.

If somebody claims something in a web forum, someone else may respond by saying: "this guy is a troll, he has copy-pasted this thing into a dozen mailing lists, and even though people have  rebutted his false claims again and again, he still does it. I think he is doing it only for fun. Don't answer him."

This is Ad Hominen, and valid.

Note: I don't take sides on the "Is Debian Ubuntu issue?". Nor do I claim that Ian Murdock has enough expertise to decide this. Being the first does not automatically make him the greatest expert on Debian.

And why are you arguing whether Debian is Ubuntu anyway?

--
Kent


--
Kent West
http://kentwest.blogspot.com <http://kentwest.blogspot.com/>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]




--
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Ron Johnson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/07 16:16, Jorge Peixoto de Morais Neto wrote:
[snip]
>
> And why are you arguing whether Debian is Ubuntu anyway?

We're not.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFF/wr1S9HxQb37XmcRAp9hAJ41e51YoqZoox+qwJMXOfnHbtz3mgCfZSFu
Psf6wJQE1GGcrMoxWmt0i3Q=
=iRoF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Michael Pobega
In reply to this post by H.S.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 12:44:38PM -0400, H.S. wrote:

>
> Just saw this in the following piece:
> http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/murdockint.html
>
> "Ubuntu has certainly raised the bar. They have had a tremendous impact
> on the number of people worldwide using Debian (I do consider Ubuntu to
> be Debian). ..."
>
> ->HS
>

Funny, I just read this twenty minutes ago.

I think Ian is somewhat right, most people who use Ubuntu (Not to
insult them) are teenagers who want to use Linux in the same way "hip"
people use Macs. Not to say that all people who use Ubuntu are like
that, but a good majority are.

And for the people who actually want to use Linux, they will
eventually move from Ubuntu to Debian. That is how I found my way
here, since my vendor (System76) ships with Ubuntu by default. I spent
three months in Ubuntu learning how to use and configure my system,
and after three months I felt ready to switch to Debian. I think that
is what Ian meant by "[Ubuntu has] a tremendous impact on the number
of people [...] using Debian".

I'll be looking forward to April's LFX, sucks that I live in America
so I have to wait an extra month or so to get the magazine.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Jorge Morais-3

And for the people who actually want to use Linux, they will
eventually move from Ubuntu to Debian.
I don't want to start a flamewar, but I don't why Debian is superior to Ubuntu for a home user.


--
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Michael Pobega
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 08:37:27PM -0300, Jorge Peixoto de Morais Neto wrote:
> >And for the people who actually want to use Linux, they will
> >eventually move from Ubuntu to Debian.
>
> I don't want to start a flamewar, but I don't why Debian is superior to
> Ubuntu for a home user.
>

I've found Debian is more ways than one to be more suitable for home
use. Ubuntu offers a new release every six months, which while some
people like upgrading I really don't. Ubuntu's dist-upgrade is broken
for the most part, and doesn't work as well as Debian's, meaning that
every six months you're almost always forced to make a choice; Risk a
dist-upgrade break, or reinstall Ubuntu's new release.

I gave up on that after an unsuccessful Dapper->Edgy upgrade, because
I realise if I really want to keep my laptop working for college (I'll
be using this next year to take notes during class), I'll need
something stable that won't break every six months (Of course I can
just not dist-upgrade, but then I wouldn't get ANY package upgrades).

Debian also offers three flavors, and two ways to use them; Since we
all use Debian I'll skip the explanation, but basically stable is good
for server use, testing is good for stable home use and unstable is
good for bleeding edge home use.

And for the two ways to use them, you can either be running "Etch" or
"Testing". And yes, those are two different things; Running "Testing"
means you'll always stay updated without having to worry about
upgrading to a new version, or reinstalling Debian, for example.

And I'm a GNU Purist, besides my wireless drivers (Which are in
contrib) I have no non-free packages installed on my system. Ubuntu
doesn't offer any differentiations between non-free packages and free
packages in their repositories, which upset me when I run my weekly
"vrms" to find that the program "unrar" was non-free. Of course now I
use the (Far inferior) unrar-free program, but I hated how Ubuntu had
no seperation between the repositories.

The Debian social contract is the main thing that won me, and I have a
friend in my Math class who also uses Debian because he loves Debian
and the way it does everything (He has been distro hopping, but always
ends up back on Debian. Even after trying Ubuntu he landed back into
Debian's arms).

Just my two cents, I still consider Ubuntu a good distro for people
who don't want to do any extensive work on their computers to use, but
I think that if you have a bit of free time for troubleshooting and
customizing and occasionally working around problems, Debian is really
the greatest distribution available.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Jorge Morais-3

And I'm a GNU Purist, besides my wireless drivers (Which are in
contrib) I have no non-free packages installed on my system. Ubuntu
doesn't offer any differentiations between non-free packages and free
packages in their repositories, which upset me when I run my weekly
"vrms" to find that the program "unrar" was non-free. Of course now I
use the (Far inferior) unrar-free program, but I hated how Ubuntu had
no seperation between the repositories.

I think that non-free software go  to  restricted and to multiverse, while  main and universe are pure.
I believe main and restricted are enabled by default, and that is why you ended up with unrar.

By the way, I use 7zip to uncompress rar (I don't know if it compresses rar, I have never tried, I I have no intention to compress to a non-free format.).


--
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Jorge Morais-3


I think that non-free software go  to  restricted and to multiverse, while  main and universe are pure.
I believe main and restricted are enabled by default, and that is why you ended up with unrar.
Humm, thinking again, Ubuntu keeps restricted to a bare minimum, and unrar would certainly go to multiverse. So I don't know how you ended up with unrar.
IIRC, restricted only has drivers and things like that.

--
Software is like sex: it is better when it is free.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Michael Pobega
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 09:04:28PM -0300, Jorge Peixoto de Morais Neto
wrote:
> > I think that non-free software go  to  restricted and to multiverse,
> > while main and universe are pure.  I believe main and restricted are
> > enabled by default, and that is why you ended up with unrar.
> >
> Humm, thinking again, Ubuntu keeps restricted to a bare minimum, and
> unrar would certainly go to multiverse. So I don't know how you
> ended up with unrar.  IIRC, restricted only has drivers and things
> like that.
>

I'm not sure how I ended up with unrar on my system, but I didn't like
it. I never really add third party sources to my sources.list so it
can't be that (The only time I EVER add third party sources is for
things like desktop environments, or things I'd really like to have
the "bleeding edge" of).

But Unrar isn't even the problem. Feisty is shipping with non-free
drivers, which in my opinion is an insult to Debian's philosophy.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

David E. Fox-3
In reply to this post by Michael Pobega
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:51:35 -0400
Michael Pobega <[hidden email]> wrote:

> something stable that won't break every six months (Of course I can
> just not dist-upgrade, but then I wouldn't get ANY package upgrades).

Can you not do something much like to 'aptitude update && aptitude
upgrade" on Ubuntu, no matter what flavor? Case in point - I had a
guest box over here for a couple of months, and I installed Ubuntu
Edgy on it. After the initial install, configuration, and such, I
kept it up to date with the Edgy repository by simply doing that,
just like I would have done on Debian Etch/testing on my main machine,
although of course, the packages & sources list pointed to Ubuntu and
not Debian repositories.

Of course, there will be more releases done in the same time frame on
Ubuntu compared to pure Debian. So, you risk potential obsolescence
sooner if you install (for instance) Edgy add Edgy becomes what Dapper
is now.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
David E. Fox                              Thanks for letting me
[hidden email]                            change magnetic patterns
[hidden email]               on your hard disk.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Carl Fink-4
In reply to this post by Michael Pobega
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 07:21:31PM -0400, Michael Pobega wrote:

> And for the people who actually want to use Linux, they will
> eventually move from Ubuntu to Debian ...

I've been using Debian since slink, and I'm ready to move to Ubuntu.

I just can't handle the absurdly-long release cycle any more.
--
Carl Fink                                   [hidden email]

Read my blog at nitpickingblog.blogspot.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Ron Johnson
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/07 22:11, Carl Fink wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 07:21:31PM -0400, Michael Pobega wrote:
>
>> And for the people who actually want to use Linux, they will
>> eventually move from Ubuntu to Debian ...
>
> I've been using Debian since slink, and I'm ready to move to Ubuntu.
>
> I just can't handle the absurdly-long release cycle any more.

Sid?


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFF/1b+S9HxQb37XmcRAlyvAKDJg2MPoYh7nH3xOD+aG/VU1/F86wCgozb4
10C+1FTXNxQbPsIQtgokBDk=
=vGX9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Carl Fink-4
On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 10:37:34PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 03/19/07 22:11, Carl Fink wrote:

> > I just can't handle the absurdly-long release cycle any more.
>
> Sid?

Using.  Not developing.

I run Etch on my home box (the one I'm typing on now) but for servers it
isn't always practical to use Testing, and that means you can almost never
use a currently-in-production server with Debian, unless you want to
hand-compile at the very least a kernel.

CentOS was much easier for me as an admin.
--
Carl Fink                                   [hidden email]

Read my blog at nitpickingblog.blogspot.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [hidden email]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

Roberto C. Sanchez-2
On Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 12:02:20AM -0400, Carl Fink wrote:
>
> Using.  Not developing.
>
What difference does it make?

> I run Etch on my home box (the one I'm typing on now) but for servers it
> isn't always practical to use Testing, and that means you can almost never
> use a currently-in-production server with Debian, unless you want to
> hand-compile at the very least a kernel.
>
> CentOS was much easier for me as an admin.
>
Umm, most of the software in CentOS (I'm talking the 5.0 beta which will
come out shortly now that RedHat has released) is the same version (or
even a couple of minor versions *behind*) the versions currently in
Etch.  You also realise that CentOS is shipping with only a tiny
fraction of the packages that are available in Etch.  So, I wager that
you would have to do lot's more hand compiling or getting stuff from
third parties to run on CentOS than you would have to on Debian.

Now, I have run Debian on plenty of servers and I have never found one
where I *had* to compile a kernel myself.  There were times I did to get
some extra feature or something.  In general, Debian installs work fine,
unless you happen to have the absolute latest and greatest hardware.  In
which case, you would have the exact same problem installing CentOS.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sánchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

signature.asc (196 bytes) Download Attachment
1234 ... 10