'synaptic' removed from buster

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
80 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

'synaptic' removed from buster

David-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Alexander V. Makartsev
On 04.04.2019 15:52, David wrote:
People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.

More info:
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/

Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages before.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ 
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Brad Rogers
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Alexander,

>Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.

It's not.

>If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
>some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
>before.

Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
(understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
It's not your heart, it's your bank I want to break
It's Yer Money - Wonder Stuff

attachment0 (499 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Curt
In reply to this post by David-2
On 2019-04-04, David <[hidden email]> wrote:
Owlett's gonna be pissed.

Synaptic doesn't play nice with the Wayland protocol, Gnome desktop with
Wayland is the new default desktop/login mode in Buster, so Synaptic's out?

Lots of veteran newbies will be seriously discombobulated if they don't have
their Synaptic, I'd guess.

https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Francisco M Neto-4
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> > before.
>
> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
> be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
> (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

        What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
without a single hiccup for years...

--Francisco

signature.asc (879 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Gene Heskett-4
In reply to this post by David-2
On Thursday 04 April 2019 06:52:35 David wrote:

We need tar, hot tar, and feathers, lots of them.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Curt
In reply to this post by Francisco M Neto-4
On 2019-04-04, Francisco M Neto <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
>> If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
>> > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
>> > before.
>>=20
>> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
>> be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
>> (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
>
> What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
> without a single hiccup for years...
>

My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
is the default combo starting with Buster).

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Gene Heskett-4
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On Thursday 04 April 2019 07:33:13 Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Alexander,
>
> >Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
>
> It's not.
>
> >If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> >some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> >before.
>
> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it
> to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is
> considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

For gnome maybe.I can't nuke that paranoid POS quick enough.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Reco
In reply to this post by Francisco M Neto-4
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:

> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> > > before.
> >
> > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
> > be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
> > (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
>
> What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
> without a single hiccup for years...

The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 from
#818366.

The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.

Reco

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Francisco M Neto-4
On Thu, 04 Apr 2019 09:20:51 -0300
Francisco M Neto <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Francisco,

> What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using

To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not very
helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's aimed
squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is, however,
reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not been
forthcoming.

I would hope that if somebody does come up with a fix, Synaptic would be
reintroduced to Buster quickly.

Of course, anybody that already has Synaptic installed won't lose it,
it'll simply be marked as 'local/obsolete'.  Only if/when its remaining
installed causes a conflict somewhere, will Synaptic be considered for
removal.

Full bug report thread starts here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366
It's not overly long, nor too technical - by which I mean: *I* understood
it, so it can't be that hard.   :-)

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
White people going to school, where they teach you to be thick
White Riot - The Clash

attachment0 (499 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Gene Heskett-4
In reply to this post by Reco
On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > repositories
> > >
> > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > packages before.
> > >
> > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for
> > > it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is
> > > considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
> >
> > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using
> > both without a single hiccup for years...
>
> The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> from #818366.
>
> The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
> needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
>
> Reco

I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. If
it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the
users. If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions,
tuff luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
recently demonstrated that. All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to
getting anything useful done.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

David-2
In reply to this post by Curt
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 23:21, Curt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2019-04-04, David <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> > alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.

> Owlett's gonna be pissed.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 00:26, Richard Owlett <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At this point, the same cognoscenti who bemoan Linux lacking market
> penetration tell him to go read some techie manuals and perform arcane
> incantations. As true ostriches they insist the problem is "operator error".

Ok, let's avoid arcane incantations then ...

Maybe it's time to try Ubuntu, they do a MATE version. [1]
Abandon the ostriches and embrace the market-penetrating Bionic Beaver.

[1] https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Reco
In reply to this post by Gene Heskett-4
        Hi.

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote:
> > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
> > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
>
> I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work.

Quite the contrary. To get users it just needs to be written by a
certain company. Three-letter acronym company, to be specific.


> If it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the
> users.

"gnome-packagekit" touts itself as a "Graphical distribution neutral
package manager for GNOME". There are other distributions where users
don't have the alternative.
But once again, Debian project choose to follow so called "industry
leaders".


> If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff
> luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
> recently demonstrated that.

Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone
might get offended :)


> All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to getting anything useful
> done.

This one is for the buster users. Stretch isn't affected.

Reco

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Joe Rowan
In reply to this post by Reco
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:  
> > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > repositories  
> > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > packages before.  
> > >
> > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome
> > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.  
> >
> > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > using both without a single hiccup for years...  
>
> The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> from #818366.
>
I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.

--
Joe

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Reco
        Hi.

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
> Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:  
> > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > > repositories  
> > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > > packages before.  
> > > >
> > > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome
> > > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.  
> > >
> > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > > using both without a single hiccup for years...  
> >
> > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> > from #818366.
> >
> I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
> invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
> policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.

... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's
designed to be single-user only.
As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and
that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in Wayland
for obvious reasons).

In short, Wayland is upon us.

Reco

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

tomas@tuxteam.de
In reply to this post by Reco
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:58:20PM +0300, Reco wrote:
[...]

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> > If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff
> > luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
> > recently demonstrated that.
>
> Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone
> might get offended :)

Not a Gnome user here, by a long shot. But still a bit weary of the
negative tone of you both. There are folks there at bug #818366
trying to find a solution -- why not chime in and help out?

This is, you know, a collaborative project.

Cheers
-- t

signature.asc (205 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Gene Heskett-4
In reply to this post by Reco
On Thursday 04 April 2019 13:45:52 Reco wrote:

> Hi.
>
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
> >
> > Reco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > > > repositories
> > > > >
> > > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > > > packages before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in
> > > > > Gnome is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
> > > >
> > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > > > using both without a single hiccup for years...
> > >
> > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> > > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> > > from #818366.
> >
> > I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
> > invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
> > policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.
>
> ... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's
> designed to be single-user only.
> As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and
> that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in
> Wayland for obvious reasons).
>
> In short, Wayland is upon us.
>
> Reco

The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way
to make it work like win-3.0?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Greg Wooledge
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way
> to make it work like win-3.0?

The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland
documentation I've seen so far.

I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run the
graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process that
runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second process
could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.

I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a different
solution in mind.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Gene Heskett-4
On Thursday 04 April 2019 15:57:17 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
> > multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the
> > way to make it work like win-3.0?
>
> The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
> running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
> model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland
> documentation I've seen so far.
>
> I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run
> the graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary
> process that runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That
> second process could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon
> of some kind. Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does
> the work.
>
> I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
> different solution in mind.

I didn't intend to say it was simple. Its also incorrect. Fix one or the
other, but I don't expect it to be "simple".  You fix wayland once, or
you fix half the os's utilities.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

Greg Wooledge
On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:15:32PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I didn't intend to say it was simple. Its also incorrect. Fix one or the
> other, but I don't expect it to be "simple".  You fix wayland once, or
> you fix half the os's utilities.

Wayland isn't in need of a "fix", as I understand it.  It's working as
designed.

How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are intended
to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half the os's
utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.

1234