which mutt?

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which mutt?

rlharris
On Debian 9 (amd64), I installed Mutt.  The synaptic description says the package is 1.7.2 and has neoMutt patches.  But the "V" command in Mutt reports the version as "NeoMutt 20170113 (1.7.2)".

I searched and read a number of list threads on the matter of Mutt vs. neoMutt, but most of the threads I found were a few years old, so I do not know the outcome of the matter.  I also found a web page which says that Debian 10 is going to offer a "neoMutt" package.  Does this mean that Debian 10 also is going to offer a "Mutt" package, or is neoMutt going to be the sole Mutt offering?

I used Mutt years ago; I wish now to run the stable version of the original Mutt, maintained by Elkins and company.  And, if at all possible, I wish to install an official Mutt package from the Debian repository.


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Re: which mutt?

Francisco M Neto-4
AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between the
package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
pretty[1,2].


In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.

I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to get it some
other way.

[1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
[2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635

--Francisco

On Fri, 2019-05-03 at 03:56 +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:

> On Debian 9 (amd64), I installed Mutt.  The synaptic description says the
> package is 1.7.2 and has neoMutt patches.  But the "V" command in Mutt reports
> the version as "NeoMutt 20170113 (1.7.2)".
>
> I searched and read a number of list threads on the matter of Mutt vs.
> neoMutt, but most of the threads I found were a few years old, so I do not
> know the outcome of the matter.  I also found a web page which says that
> Debian 10 is going to offer a "neoMutt" package.  Does this mean that Debian
> 10 also is going to offer a "Mutt" package, or is neoMutt going to be the sole
> Mutt offering?
>
> I used Mutt years ago; I wish now to run the stable version of the original
> Mutt, maintained by Elkins and company.  And, if at all possible, I wish to
> install an official Mutt package from the Debian repository.
>
>
--
[]'s,

Francisco M Neto

GPG: 4096R/D692FBF0

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Re: which mutt?

Nate Bargmann-4
In reply to this post by rlharris
* On 2019 02 May 23:45 -0500, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> I searched and read a number of list threads on the matter of Mutt vs.
> neoMutt, but most of the threads I found were a few years old, so I do
> not know the outcome of the matter.  I also found a web page which
> says that Debian 10 is going to offer a "neoMutt" package.  Does this
> mean that Debian 10 also is going to offer a "Mutt" package, or is
> neoMutt going to be the sole Mutt offering?

In the Testing repository both are available.  Mutt is at version
1.10.1-2 and neoMutt is at version 20180716+dfsg.1-1.  I am using the
neomutt package due to its offering of additional attachment header
highlighting capability.

> I used Mutt years ago; I wish now to run the stable version of the
> original Mutt, maintained by Elkins and company.  And, if at all
> possible, I wish to install an official Mutt package from the Debian
> repository.

If you are satisfied with Mutt's capability it will work well.  I've
been using Mutt for almost 20 years and it has continued to serve me
well without any surprises.  Weigh the features of each against what you
wish to accomplish and choose the one that is best for you.

- Nate

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: http://www.n0nb.us  GPG key: D55A8819  GitHub: N0NB

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Re: which mutt?

Jim Popovitch-3
In reply to this post by Francisco M Neto-4
On Fri, 2019-05-03 at 08:43 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
+AD4 AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between the
+AD4 package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
+AD4 pretty+AFs-1,2+AF0.
+AD4
+AD4
+AD4 In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.

Is there a formal policy or plan for how issues like this are handled in
the future +ACo-before+ACo flamewars begin?  There was a similar issue with
mailx (bsd-mailx, heirloom-mailx, s-nail) where decisions were made by
one group and offences were taken by others.  It just seems like a clear
policy could prevent a lot of these +ACI-name takeover+ACI issues.

-Jim P.

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Re: which mutt?

Francisco M Neto-4
On Fri, 2019-05-03 at 10:51 -0400, Jim Popovitch wrote:

> On Fri, 2019-05-03 at 08:43 -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between
> > the
> > package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
> > pretty[1,2].
> >
> >
> > In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.
>
> Is there a formal policy or plan for how issues like this are handled in
> the future *before* flamewars begin?  There was a similar issue with
> mailx (bsd-mailx, heirloom-mailx, s-nail) where decisions were made by
> one group and offences were taken by others.  It just seems like a clear
> policy could prevent a lot of these "name takeover" issues.
        I'm not sure about what happened to mailx, but with Mutt it was a bad
decision made by the package maintainer years ago when applying the Neomutt
patch became too cumbersome; it was not foreseen in Debian Policy, so I don't
think there is any provision for it in it. That's probably why it ended up in a
flame like that.

--
[]'s,

Francisco M Neto

GPG: 4096R/D692FBF0

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Re: which mutt?

Jimmy Johnson-8
In reply to this post by Francisco M Neto-4
On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between the
> package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
> pretty[1,2].


It's been blogged too.  I think Neo is kind of in your face and it is
about the hate Microsoft has for Open Source Linux.  The idea of a
embargo is a good idea.

> In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.
>
> I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to get it some
> other way.
>
> [1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
> [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635
>
> --Francisco


--
Jimmy Johnson

14.2 - KDE - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 - Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: which mutt?

David Wright-3
On Fri 03 May 2019 at 09:40:05 (-0700), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between the
> > package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
> > pretty[1,2].
>
> It's been blogged too.

No reference.

> I think Neo is kind of in your face and it is
> about the hate Microsoft has for Open Source Linux.

No evidence or reference.

> The idea of a
> embargo is a good idea.

Embargo of what?

Why do you think it's a good idea?

Or is your post just a troll?

> > In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.
> >
> > I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to get it some
> > other way.
> >
> > [1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
> > [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635

Cheers,
David.

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Re: which mutt?

rlharris
In reply to this post by Jimmy Johnson-8
On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 09:40:05AM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
>>AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar...

I found the war in the threads, but I did not find the outcome.


>>In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.

As it should be.


>>I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to
>>get it some other way.
>>
>>[1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
>>[2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635

I am willing to wait for Buster to reach stable status; besides, that
gives me an impetus to upgrade.


P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
and [2] above?  

RLH

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Re: which mutt?

Dan Ritter-4
Russell L. Harris wrote:

> On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 09:40:05AM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> > On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar...
>
> I found the war in the threads, but I did not find the outcome.
>
>
> > > In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.
>
> As it should be.
>
>
> > > I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to
> > > get it some other way.
> > >
> > > [1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
> > > [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635
>
> I am willing to wait for Buster to reach stable status; besides, that
> gives me an impetus to upgrade.
>
>
> P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
> message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
> and [2] above?

Two things:

in .muttrc:

auto_view text/html

in .mailcap or /etc/mailcap:

text/html; /usr/bin/sensible-browser %s; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html
text/html; /usr/bin/firefox-esr %s; description=HTML Text; test=test -n "$DISPLAY";  nametemplate=%s.html
text/html; /usr/bin/google-chrome-stable --incognito %s; test=test -n "$DISPLAY"
application/xhtml_xml; /usr/bin/google-chrome-stable --incognito %s; test=test -n "$DISPLAY"
text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -force_html %s; needsterminal; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html
text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -dump -force_html %s; copiousoutput; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html

or similar.

-dsr-

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Re: which mutt?

Jonathan Dowland
In reply to this post by rlharris
On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 03:56:43AM +0000, Russell L. Harris wrote:

>On Debian 9 (amd64), I installed Mutt.  The synaptic description says the
>package is 1.7.2 and has neoMutt patches.  But the "V" command in Mutt reports
>the version as "NeoMutt 20170113 (1.7.2)".
>
>I searched and read a number of list threads on the matter of Mutt vs.
>neoMutt, but most of the threads I found were a few years old, so I do not
>know the outcome of the matter.  I also found a web page which says that
>Debian 10 is going to offer a "neoMutt" package.  Does this mean that Debian
>10 also is going to offer a "Mutt" package, or is neoMutt going to be the sole
>Mutt offering?
>
>I used Mutt years ago; I wish now to run the stable version of the original
>Mutt, maintained by Elkins and company.  And, if at all possible, I wish to
>install an official Mutt package from the Debian repository.

When you upgrade to Buster, your mutt package will upgrade to a version
which is based on upstream without the neomutt patches.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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Re: which mutt?

Jimmy Johnson-8
In reply to this post by David Wright-3
On 05/03/2019 10:56 AM, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 03 May 2019 at 09:40:05 (-0700), Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>> On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
>>> AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar between the
>>> package maintainer and the Mutt guy a while ago about that. It wasn't
>>> pretty[1,2].

>> It's been blogged too.
>
> No reference.
>
>> I think Neo is kind of in your face and it is
>> about the hate Microsoft has for Open Source Linux.
>
> No evidence or reference.
>
>> The idea of a
>> embargo is a good idea.
>
> Embargo of what?


Debian knows what I'm talking about.

> Why do you think it's a good idea?


MS has taken their Billions and bought into Open Source and now there
are more Microsoft Neo-Linux-Developers(That's what they call
themselves) than any other single group of developers including google.
And along with that comes a declaration of war.  I came to Linux to get
away from Microsoft where I was a partner, they are bad for my nerves
and my high blood pressure.  So I personally have found myself other
sources until Debian comes around and is no longer playing with
Microsoft. After more than 20 years with Debian as my main OS it was not
easy, but I am still testing.

> Or is your post just a troll?


David you know better than that and as a matter of fact your post is
more Trolling than mine with your put up or shut up attitude.

The truth is out there, you have to dig and sometimes read between the
lines.

This is my last post in this thread.

Thanks,
--
Jimmy Johnson

14.2 - KDE - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda9 - Registered Linux User #380263

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Re: which mutt?

Erik Christiansen
In reply to this post by rlharris
On 03.05.19 18:01, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
> message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
> and [2] above?

A convenient alternative is to just double-click on a link in mutt's
display in an xterm, then paste anywhere in the middle of firefox/iceweasel
(not in the URL box up top). That works with a simple config:

URL Drop to Invoke:
   To be able to drop a URL anywhere in the window, to open it:
   Put about:config in the URL box, scroll to  middlemouse.contentLoadURL, and
   click to toggle it to true. Now a URL highlighted in an xterm can be pasted
   to firefox (and opened) with one middlemouse click - even if it has a
   spurious space/line-break in it.  (Thanks to John L. Fjellstad)


Then html messages can generally be subjected to e.g.:

text/html; /usr/bin/html2text '%s'; copiousoutput; description=HTML Text

which preserves the recipient's text experience, keeping display in
mutt. (Yup, the real one - since late last millennium. ;-)

Erik

--
HTML is not email, and email doesn't contain HTML, so please turn HTML
formatting OFF in your email client. We have filters in place that will
reject your message if your posting contains HTML.
                           - http://gpl-violations.org/mailinglists.html

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Re: which mutt?

Jonathan Dowland
In reply to this post by Jimmy Johnson-8
On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 02:22:21PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> Debian knows what I'm talking about.

This Debian developer hasn't the foggiest.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

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Re: which mutt?

Curt
In reply to this post by Erik Christiansen
On 2019-05-04, Erik Christiansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 03.05.19 18:01, Russell L. Harris wrote:
>> P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
>> message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
>> and [2] above?
>
> A convenient alternative is to just double-click on a link in mutt's
> display in an xterm, then paste anywhere in the middle of firefox/iceweasel
> (not in the URL box up top). That works with a simple config:

One lady's bug is another lady's feature:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Firefox-Middle-Click-Bug

Seems the 'middlemouse.contentLoadUrl' default has been "True" since
Methuselah, but is set to "False" from Firefox 57 on.

Another alternative is the 'urlview' package:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/mutt#

But everybody mutt probably already knows that.

> URL Drop to Invoke:
>    To be able to drop a URL anywhere in the window, to open it:
>    Put about:config in the URL box, scroll to  middlemouse.contentLoadURL, and
>    click to toggle it to true. Now a URL highlighted in an xterm can be pasted
>    to firefox (and opened) with one middlemouse click - even if it has a
>    spurious space/line-break in it.  (Thanks to John L. Fjellstad)
>
>
> Then html messages can generally be subjected to e.g.:
>
> text/html; /usr/bin/html2text '%s'; copiousoutput; description=HTML Text
>
> which preserves the recipient's text experience, keeping display in
> mutt. (Yup, the real one - since late last millennium. ;-)
>
> Erik
>

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Re: which mutt?

Michael Stone-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Dowland
On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 08:46:26AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 02:22:21PM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
>>Debian knows what I'm talking about.
>
>This Debian developer hasn't the foggiest.

Don't encourage it.

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Re: which mutt?

Dejan Jocic
In reply to this post by Curt
On 04-05-19, Curt wrote:
> On 2019-05-04, Erik Christiansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 03.05.19 18:01, Russell L. Harris wrote:
> >> P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
> >> message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
> >> and [2] above?
> >
> > A convenient alternative is to just double-click on a link in mutt's
> > display in an xterm, then paste anywhere in the middle of firefox/iceweasel
> > (not in the URL box up top). That works with a simple config:

If you are using xterm, best solution for me was to set opening URLs
from anywhere in xterm, not just mutt, would be to set highlighting URLs
with double click and opening them with Shift + Mouse left button.

For that you would need in your .Xresources these lines

xterm*charClass: 33:48,36-47:48,58-59:48,61:48,63-64:48,95:48,126:48

xterm*VT100*translations: #override Shift <Btn1Up>:
exec-formatted("firefox '%t'", PRIMARY)

Dejan



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Re: which mutt?

David Jardine
In reply to this post by Dan Ritter-4
On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 02:57:10PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:

> Russell L. Harris wrote:
> > On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 09:40:05AM -0700, Jimmy Johnson wrote:
> > > On 05/03/2019 04:43 AM, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > > AFAIK in Stretch Mutt actually means Neomutt. There was a flamewar...
> >
> > I found the war in the threads, but I did not find the outcome.
> >
> >
> > > > In Buster, Mutt means Mutt, and Neomutt means Neomutt.
> >
> > As it should be.
> >
> >
> > > > I suppose if you want to use "Vanilla" Mutt in Stretch you need to
> > > > get it some other way.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero
> > > > [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=870635
> >
> > I am willing to wait for Buster to reach stable status; besides, that
> > gives me an impetus to upgrade.
> >
> >
> > P.S.  Would someone kindly tell me how, while in Mutt and reading a
> > message such as this, to launch a browser to open links such as [1]
> > and [2] above?
>
> Two things:
>
> in .muttrc:
>
> auto_view text/html
>
> in .mailcap or /etc/mailcap:
>
> text/html; /usr/bin/sensible-browser %s; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html
> text/html; /usr/bin/firefox-esr %s; description=HTML Text; test=test -n "$DISPLAY";  nametemplate=%s.html
> text/html; /usr/bin/google-chrome-stable --incognito %s; test=test -n "$DISPLAY"
> application/xhtml_xml; /usr/bin/google-chrome-stable --incognito %s; test=test -n "$DISPLAY"
> text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -force_html %s; needsterminal; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html
> text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -dump -force_html %s; copiousoutput; description=HTML Text; nametemplate=%s.html
>
> or similar.
>
> -dsr-
>

Or:  Pressing Ctrl-b while viewing the message brings up your browser
with a list of the links in the message.

Cheers,
David